Out of Character Holes

[Anthony Gray]

  Tis is the greatness of Cruden Bay. They are all out of character.

  Anthony

[Howard Riefs]

I can think of a couple Pete Dye par-3's...the 17th at The Ocean Course which looks like a typical Florida water fronted par-3 (with little or any options) on steroids in the middle of a bunch of really great dunesland holes with tons of options. The other would be the 17th at Blackwolf Run (River)...same thing.

Sticking with Dye... on the Whistling Straits Irish course, there's #17 that wraps around the irrigation pond.

Or the 5th hole on the Straits!

I see a trend...

3 Dye courses
3 Irrigation ponds
3 Out of character holes

Such is what happens, perhaps, when it's the only body of water in play on the course.

[Anthony Gray]

The 1st and 18th at Pac Dunes ...

The 1st and 18th at Bandon Trails ...

  Why Mike?

[Brian Finn]

I saw the title of this thread and #10 at sleepy hollow immediately came to mind.  With Hanse and Bahto so nicely unifying the Macdonald and Tillinghast holes, the 10th seems more out of place than ever.  Does anyone know if there are plans to alter the 10th?  What is the membership's view?  

Other than that, I can't think of another hole at sleepy hollow that wasn't a blast to play.  What a fun and interesting course.

[Mark Saltzman]

Howard, to add to your irrigation pond totals...

Sebonack #8

Wine Valley #9

And I agree with Plainfield #14.  Although the land upon which 13/15 are routed is less interesting than the rest of the course, I don't think they stand out as much as 14.

[Tim Bert]

The 18th at NLE High Pointe.

The 5th at Whistling Straits. It has been discussed frequently WHY this hole is what it is but it is still very much out of character with the rest of the course.

1 at Bandon Dunes. I like the hole but the bunkering near the green seems completely different than the rest of the course.

[Howard Riefs]

Howard, to add to your irrigation pond totals...

Sebonack #8

Wine Valley #9

There's also #16 at Sankaty Head

Ideally, the irrigation pond is out-of-play for those courses with minimal or no water (be it links-style or other).  Case in point the pond adjacent to #9 at Erin Hills.  But that's only a luxury for those courses on nearly limitless supply of land.

In such an instance, is there any other way that a hole designed around an irrigation pond doesn't become another "out of character" hole?

[Mark McKeever]

Howard, to add to your irrigation pond totals...

Sebonack #8

Wine Valley #9

There's also #16 at Sankaty Head

Ideally, the irrigation pond is out-of-play for those courses with minimal or no water (be it links-style or other).  Case in point the pond adjacent to #9 at Erin Hills.  But that's only a luxury for those courses on nearly limitless supply of land.

Is there any other way that a hole designed around an irrigation pond doesn't become another "out of character" hole?

I think 8 and 9 at Stonewall work very well with the irrigation pond.

Mark

[Chris DeNigris]

Another isolated irrigation pond- 18th at Vista Verde. I don't think it detracts from the course though.

I'm not so sure why out of character connotes such negativity with many here...maybe it's just a mindset?

[Matthew Petersen]

Another isolated irrigation pond- 18th at Vista Verde. I don't think it detracts from the course though.

I'm not so sure why out of character connotes such negativity with many here...maybe it's just a mindset?

That's a good example and it's so common in Arizona especially. 17 holes of desert golf and then they build a big lake to finish next to.

Ultimately, that hole does bring down my opinion of VV, though not just because of the water. It's not a very good hole overall, not a particularly interesting finisher, and-yes-the pond is completely out of character with the rest of the layout.

[Mike Boehm]

#3 at Inverness felt a out of character.  I've heard people say the same thing about 5 and 6 as well, but other than the walkback to 5, I thought those holes themselves felt like they belonged. 

[Cliff Hamm]

An example of holes which are out of character, but which enhance the course, would be the holes near the clubhouse at Baltusrol Lower.  Specifically 2-4, maybe 5, and maybe 17, definitely 18.  These holes occupy more hilly, rolling terrain then the rest of the course and water is also more prominent.

[Dean DiBerardino]

Holes 14-17 at Granville. 

[Phil McDade]

The 17th and 18th at the original Machrihanish links probably qualify. The 1st is well-known for its tee shot over the ocean, while the second shot of the 2nd takes you up into the dramatic dunes that define much of the rest of the course. The routing takes one out of the dunes at the turn, but the land through holes 15 and 16 (two solid, back-to-back par 3s) is linksy and rolling if not dunesy like the front nine. But the 17th and 18th are something of a letdown -- bland holes over flattish land with dullish greens.

[Chris DeNigris]

Phil- I'm sure it's been covered here before- but when I played Machrihanish a couple of years ago the caddie-master I thought said that the original 18th green was located further up the hill close to where the little pro-shop is now. Any truth to that? I remember thinking at the time that that would have added a lot more interest to the hole.

[Mike_Trenham]

15 - 17 at Atlantic City CC
15-18 at Oak Hill CC Rochester NY

[Niall C]

Phil- I'm sure it's been covered here before- but when I played Machrihanish a couple of years ago the caddie-master I thought said that the original 18th green was located further up the hill close to where the little pro-shop is now. Any truth to that? I remember thinking at the time that that would have added a lot more interest to the hole.

Chris

Don't have the details to hand but the course was altered considerably by JH Taylor, the then Open champion (can't recall the year off hand but some time in the first decade of the 20th century). Its very possible that the 18th green was further back. Most of the changes were in extending the course into new ground further out as before that it was fairly cramped (or so I believe from what I remember of what I've read).

Niall

[Wade Whitehead]

Mike, re: Oak Hill: Once a course has four "out of character" holes, doesn't that make them "in character?"  They represent almost 25% of the holes of the course, so they at least begin to define the entire place.

WW

[Jason Topp]

For those that have listed out of character holes do they detract from the course?  If so do they detract because they are of a different character or because they are not of the same quality as the other holes on the course?

[Alex Miller]

It says more about the rest of the holes, but the "new" 7th and 8th at Rustic Canyon. The only two holes on the course that dont accept run-up shots. The 8th is forgivable, but the 7th is the only hole on the course that I have a less than enthusiastic attitude toward.

[George_Bahto]

Brian Finn - Sleepy Hollow #10

Because of the “blending” of three architects at Sleepy Hollow we have a problem with the length of the par-3's; ie - - the third hole is a moderate short - to - middle length par three; the 7th is decent length Redan (long iron for the average player); The great 16th is a short club

We have no long par-3 aside from #10 looking out of place with the rest of the course.

........  and the 10th is short club. Given the topo of the area around the 10th it is not very feasible to length the hole in order to get long par-3, unless you initial a long water carry (boooooooo), so we’re kind of stuck with whatz there. There is rock ledge behind the green, water in fron and to the right and we have the 11th tee-box to the left .....   In all, a small area besides.

Our “plan” (if we can get it initiated) is to redo the green surface into a considerably more interesting putting surface to make up for the deficiency of the hole. It is a pretty setting but the hole leaves much to be desired.

Here’s hoping .........................

[Brian Finn]

Brian Finn - Sleepy Hollow #10

Because of the “blending” of three architects at Sleepy Hollow we have a problem with the length of the par-3's; ie - - the third hole is a moderate short - to - middle length par three; the 7th is decent length Redan (long iron for the average player); The great 16th is a short club

We have no long par-3 aside from #10 looking out of place with the rest of the course.

........  and the 10th is short club. Given the topo of the area around the 10th it is not very feasible to length the hole in order to get long par-3, unless you initial a long water carry (boooooooo), so we’re kind of stuck with whatz there. There is rock ledge behind the green, water in fron and to the right and we have the 11th tee-box to the left .....   In all, a small area besides.

Our “plan” (if we can get it initiated) is to redo the green surface into a considerably more interesting putting surface to make up for the deficiency of the hole. It is a pretty setting but the hole leaves much to be desired.

Here’s hoping .........................

Thank you for the information.  I felt the hole was out of character, but not a bad hole on its own merit.  Just a really different feel from the rest of the course.  It  sounds like you have some neat plans for the green, and I do agree adding length would serve no good purpose.  I had not thought about the specific limitations of that location.  In any event, you guys did really incredible work there...and, as a newer site participant, I have to say it is pretty cool to hear straight from the source what is being done at Sleepy Hollow.

[Adam Clayman]

George, Does it go without saying that losing that brick wall won't upset too many?

[jeffwarne]

I saw the title of this thread and #10 at sleepy hollow immediately came to mind.  With Hanse and Bahto so nicely unifying the Macdonald and Tillinghast holes, the 10th seems more out of place than ever.  Does anyone know if there are plans to alter the 10th?  What is the membership's view?  

Other than that, I can't think of another hole at sleepy hollow that wasn't a blast to play.  What a fun and interesting course.

Brian,
What was so unfun about 10 at Sleepy Hollow?
Does a lake in that area of the course seem that out of place?

[mike_beene]

12 at Augusta feels out of place due mostly to the green shape and location down in the corner.Kind of same theme would be 13 at Colonial,all water carry and a dead end turn around and come back to the next tee right by where you just teed off.