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Jason Topp

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Out of Character Holes
« on: February 02, 2012, 12:07:38 PM »
I often hear a hole criticized as out of character with the rest of the course.  I have used that criticism myself although I consider it more of a description than a criticism.

What are examples of out of character holes in your experience?  Does the nature of the hole improve or detract from the quality of the course as a whole?

Sean_A

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Re: Out of Character Holes
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2012, 12:30:13 PM »
Jason

I think out of character holes are really an issue of time.  If these holes are allowed to survive long enough they can often be seen in a positive light.

A lot also depends on what was replaced if the out of character holes were later additions to courses - which I think they often are.  Hoylake is a good example.  A few of their famous holes were altered in modern times which helped shape the character of Hoylake as a course which uses OOB to great effect.  Both holes have been changed to drastically reduce the OOB aspect.  Royal has been criticised for its out of character green.  While, there are no other greens like it at Hoylake, one couldn't say it is wildly different.  I see the green as an extension of Colt's work.  Its certainly more severe than the usual Colt green,  but one must remember that the OOB has been nearly taken completely out of play so it isn't so harsh to create a green with some zip to it. 

Huntercombe's 17th is a hole very much out of character with the course because of the high green pad and full frontal bunkers.  It is however the 17th and quite a short par 4 - so I don't think the course suffers for it.

Ciao 
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

John Kirk

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Re: Out of Character Holes
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2012, 12:37:09 PM »
The 13th and 14th holes at Plainfield are routed across flat terrain, while the rest of the course is rolling ground.  They are decent holes to play, but feel different than the other sixteen holes.

Just an example I thought of.

Dan Grossman

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Re: Out of Character Holes
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2012, 12:40:04 PM »
Its been a long time since I played there, but doesn't the #17th at Royal County Down typically get criticized as out of character?  I think there is a pond on that hole near the green, if I remember correctly.

Mike Benham

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Re: Out of Character Holes
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2012, 12:42:53 PM »
The 1st and 18th at Pac Dunes ...

The 1st and 18th at Bandon Trails ...

"... and I liked the guy ..."

Mike Hendren

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Re: Out of Character Holes
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2012, 02:01:07 PM »
The 13th and 14th holes at Plainfield are routed across flat terrain, while the rest of the course is rolling ground.  They are decent holes to play, but feel different than the other sixteen holes.

Just an example I thought of.

John, I immediately thought of the "tunnel holes" at Plainfield as well - particularly the par three 14th.

I hope you're well.

How about the 18th at Cuscowilla - a state park like finisher to some otherwise proto-typically stellar C & C architecture.

I see the erudite Mike Benham beat me to the click regarding the 18th at Pacific Dunes - a rare, mean spirited sucker punch by Tom Doak right when you're most vulnerable (i.e., whipped).  

Steele's work at The Eden should not be mentioned as it's in a league of its own.

Bogey
« Last Edit: February 02, 2012, 02:08:20 PM by Michael_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

PCCraig

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Re: Out of Character Holes
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2012, 02:33:06 PM »
I can think of a couple Pete Dye par-3's...the 17th at The Ocean Course which looks like a typical Florida water fronted par-3 (with little or any options) on steroids in the middle of a bunch of really great dunesland holes with tons of options. The other would be the 17th at Blackwolf Run (River)...same thing.
H.P.S.

Niall C

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Re: Out of Character Holes
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2012, 02:37:46 PM »
Pat

Would that be because of the landscape/ground on those particular stretch of holes or was it maybe he inserted a template style hole that didn't fit ?

Niall

Joey Chase

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Re: Out of Character Holes
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2012, 02:39:46 PM »
For me, the biggest offender has to be the 12th at Garden City.  I truly love the course, but cannot stand the hole.  It was redesigned by Jones at some point.  Not sure if it was part of a bigger master plan of his that never was implemented?  If that were the case, thank god it wasn't!  I wish it could be made to better fit with the rest of the course.  I would say that it doesn't spoil the entire round for me though as the rest is to enjoyable.

Jon Wiggett

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Re: Out of Character Holes
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2012, 02:47:20 PM »
Does being out of character necessarily mean a hole is of a lower quality than the rest of the course or could it be the saving grace?

Jon

Mark Chaplin

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Re: Out of Character Holes
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2012, 02:50:45 PM »
The Inverness Club 3 & 6, neither par 3 adds much to a great course.
Cave Nil Vino

Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re: Out of Character Holes
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2012, 02:52:40 PM »
I think of when new holes are made or squeezed in due to circumstances like at SFGC. i have not played there since Tom Doak tried to improve the situation. There are scads of courses like that.

Howard Riefs

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Re: Out of Character Holes
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2012, 02:53:01 PM »
I can think of a couple Pete Dye par-3's...the 17th at The Ocean Course which looks like a typical Florida water fronted par-3 (with little or any options) on steroids in the middle of a bunch of really great dunesland holes with tons of options. The other would be the 17th at Blackwolf Run (River)...same thing.


Sticking with Dye... on the Whistling Straits Irish course, there's #17 that wraps around the irrigation pond.

"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

George Freeman

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Re: Out of Character Holes
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2012, 02:57:47 PM »
For me the poster child for this is the 17th at the Ocean Course, as others have mentioned.  A real blemish in an otherwise great layout.

I would also second the two flat holes at Plainfield.  As I said in another thread: if Ross would have been afforded rolley polley land enough for just TWO more holes (removing the two flat-ish holes), Plainfield would be truly world class (it's really close as it is!).


On the flip side, what about Maidstone?  I have never played, but I have heard a lot of opinions that a small number of incredible holes really make the course and cover up a lot of ordinary holes.  Is this the case?
Mayhugh is my hero!!

"I love creating great golf courses.  I love shaping earth...it's a canvas." - Donald J. Trump

PCCraig

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Re: Out of Character Holes
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2012, 03:00:18 PM »
I can think of a couple Pete Dye par-3's...the 17th at The Ocean Course which looks like a typical Florida water fronted par-3 (with little or any options) on steroids in the middle of a bunch of really great dunesland holes with tons of options. The other would be the 17th at Blackwolf Run (River)...same thing.


Sticking with Dye... on the Whistling Straits Irish course, there's #17 that wraps around the irrigation pond.



Or the 5th hole on the Straits!
H.P.S.

Dan Kelly

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Re: Out of Character Holes
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2012, 03:20:15 PM »
Jason --

Let me take your Home Course. (Happy to do so. Anytime!)

I like (or love) 17 of the 18 holes. One hole, I don't much care for.

I'm not prepared to defend this notion (I haven't played Oak Ridge often enough to do so, or *studied* it all), but maybe the one I don't like -- 18 -- is "out of character"? (The blind tee shot with a fairway sloping toward a hazard seems out of character to me. And the green seems undistinguished -- particularly after one has played the other 17 holes -- particularly the previous eight holes.)

Maybe the out-of-characterness is simply that it's a harder par than all but a couple of the previous 17.

Or maybe it's just that I've never played it well, and haven't seen many others play it well, either.

Curious as to your thoughts.

Dan
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Bruce Wellmon

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Re: Out of Character Holes
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2012, 03:23:03 PM »
I can think of a couple Pete Dye par-3's...the 17th at The Ocean Course which looks like a typical Florida water fronted par-3 (with little or any options) on steroids in the middle of a bunch of really great dunesland holes with tons of options. The other would be the 17th at Blackwolf Run (River)...same thing.


Sticking with Dye... on the Whistling Straits Irish course, there's #17 that wraps around the irrigation pond.



Or the 5th hole on the Straits!

The 5th. Agreed. TPC Sawgrass like.

Tim Gavrich

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Re: Out of Character Holes
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2012, 03:26:27 PM »
The last two holes at Tot Hill Farm are, to me, quite out-of-step with the first 16.

#16 at Yale is also a little too conspicuously quiet a hole for the course.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Wade Whitehead

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Re: Out of Character Holes
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2012, 03:29:16 PM »
18 at Royal New Kent is unbelievably mismatched with the rest of the golf course.  17 is pushing it some but 18 is over the top.

WW

Jason Topp

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Re: Out of Character Holes
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2012, 03:38:21 PM »
Jason --

I'm not prepared to defend this notion (I haven't played Oak Ridge often enough to do so, or *studied* it all), but maybe the one I don't like -- 18 -- is "out of character"? (The blind tee shot with a fairway sloping toward a hazard seems out of character to me. And the green seems undistinguished -- particularly after one has played the other 17 holes -- particularly the previous eight holes.)

. . .

Curious as to your thoughts.

Dan


Dan - I understand your thoughts on 18 and you are not alone.  You would have really disliked it in its original version because there was a deep and huge bunker on the upslope that covered most of the fairway.  

I am not sure it is out of character.  The green has very severe slopes in its front and back portion and the fairway simply follows the land, as is the case with the most of the course.  The green is, however, angled to the line of play and might be the only one that is.

Many people criticize the hole because virtually every tee shot feeds to the same spot - to the left side of the fairway leaving a 190 yard blind approach.  I disagree with that view because a very accurate tee shot down the right side yields both a shorter and visible approach.  I love blindness as a hazard.  Ideally, I could do without the pond but it has been there since the couse opened so I am sure it is natural.  It also places pressure on the player who knows it is there.

Mike Hendren

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Re: Out of Character Holes
« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2012, 03:45:52 PM »
The last two holes at Tot Hill Farm are, to me, quite out-of-step with the first 16.

That might be true but the 17th is an excellent modern version of a Road Hole green and perhaps the best on the premises.

Bogey
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Out of Character Holes
« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2012, 03:47:17 PM »
I appreciate the replies so far.  The question for me is whether a hole that is critisized as out of character is the problem or if the analysis all depends on whether the hole is any good in the first place.  I am not sure of the answer.

Once could argue the Road Hole is out of character with St. Andrews - you hit over a building to an effectively narrow green with a road next to it.  Nonetheless it is a brilliant hole so people do not complain.

The pit at North Berwick arguably is the same but that course is so quirky it is a tough case to make.

TPC Sawgrass 17 and 18 at Harbour Town are holes that could be critisized for being out of character but you usually do not hear that criticism of them.

Pete Dye courses seem to have a lot of angled par five water holes located on otherwise links-like layouts.  Whistling Straits and Big Fish are two examples with which I am familiar.  I like the Big Fish hole on its own, but do find it a bit like a lime-green leisure suit buried in a closet of highly fashionable holes.  

Dan Kelly

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Re: Out of Character Holes
« Reply #22 on: February 02, 2012, 03:52:15 PM »
Dan - I understand your thoughts on 18 and you are not alone.  You would have really disliked it in its original version because there was a deep and huge bunker on the upslope that covered most of the fairway.  

I am not sure it is out of character.  The green has very severe slopes in its front and back portion and the fairway simply follows the land, as is the case with the most of the course.  The green is, however, angled to the line of play and might be the only one that is.

Many people criticize the hole because virtually every tee shot feeds to the same spot - to the left side of the fairway leaving a 190 yard blind approach.  I disagree with that view because a very accurate tee shot down the right side yields both a shorter and visible approach.  I love blindness as a hazard.  Ideally, I could do without the pond but it has been there since the course opened so I am sure it is natural.  It also places pressure on the player who knows it is there.

I don't disagree with anything you said here! As I said, I'm not sure it's "out of character," either -- but in my wee mind, it doesn't quite *fit*.

I don't think I've ever seen that very accurate tee shot down the right side. (Maybe if some trees came down in a terrible thunderstorm ... or a freak chain-saw massacre ... I'd see it -- and would be happy to!)

And I don't think I've ever dealt with those severe slopes on the green. (As I said, I haven't played OR enough to make any argument against the hole. The hole's been in the middle area of the green almost every time I've played it, if not every time.)

Your comment on the angled green is interesting. That's part of what I was *feeling*, more than thinking. That green doesn't *look* like the rest of the course.

To me, that green is not a dramatic-enough-looking green for the closing hole at Oak Ridge.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Jason Topp

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Re: Out of Character Holes
« Reply #23 on: February 02, 2012, 04:04:11 PM »
I don't think I've ever seen that very accurate tee shot down the right side. (Maybe if some trees came down in a terrible thunderstorm ... or a freak chain-saw massacre ... I'd see it -- and would be happy to!)

And I don't think I've ever dealt with those severe slopes on the green. (As I said, I haven't played OR enough to make any argument against the hole. The hole's been in the middle area of the green almost every time I've played it, if not every time.)
.

That would be the one problem with the tee shot - it is a very tight squeeze - probably 5 yards or so.  I doubt I hit it 10 times a year.

We will need to have a drink on the porch above the 18th sometime when the pin is in front and the noon hour groups are finishing.  We can watch people putt off the green.

PCCraig

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Re: Out of Character Holes
« Reply #24 on: February 02, 2012, 04:10:45 PM »
We can watch people putt off the green.

 ;D
H.P.S.

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