Fire Away - Links Magazine Top 100

[John Shimp]

Looks hard plays easy.  The faz

[Jackson C]

GOLF MAG WORLD
   TOP 50 SWAP OUT
43   Olympic Club (Lake) (76)

37   Medinah (89)

33   The Course at Yale (71)

14   Alotian Club (84)

20   Ballyneal (95)

These are the 5 with the biggest differences.  These are pretty large differences. 

I haven't played Ballyneal but I like the list, Olympic's recent work is horrible and they deserve to be knocked down.  Medinah is just amazing they make any list?  Yale is coming along, still has some more work to go.  Alotian looks hard, plays easy and over time will fall once the hype wears out.
[/quote

Looks to me like Jim has some of the numbers in the wrong column.
Ballyneal is rated 20 in Links
Alotian is not rated 14 in Links - it is rated 84 in Links

[Jim Colton]

GOLF MAG WORLD
   TOP 50 SWAP OUT
43   Olympic Club (Lake) (76)

37   Medinah (89)

33   The Course at Yale (71)

14   Alotian Club (84)

20   Ballyneal (95)

These are the 5 with the biggest differences.  These are pretty large differences. 

I haven't played Ballyneal but I like the list, Olympic's recent work is horrible and they deserve to be knocked down.  Medinah is just amazing they make any list?  Yale is coming along, still has some more work to go.  Alotian looks hard, plays easy and over time will fall once the hype wears out.
[/quote

Looks to me like Jim has some of the numbers in the wrong column.
Ballyneal is rated 20 in Links
Alotian is not rated 14 in Links - it is rated 84 in Links

No, Joel just took bits and pieces from the two different tables, one having Links on the left (Swap in) and one having GD on the left (swap out).

[Jackson C]

GOLF MAG WORLD
   TOP 50 SWAP OUT
43   Olympic Club (Lake) (76)

37   Medinah (89)

33   The Course at Yale (71)

14   Alotian Club (84)

20   Ballyneal (95)

These are the 5 with the biggest differences.  These are pretty large differences. 

I haven't played Ballyneal but I like the list, Olympic's recent work is horrible and they deserve to be knocked down.  Medinah is just amazing they make any list?  Yale is coming along, still has some more work to go.  Alotian looks hard, plays easy and over time will fall once the hype wears out.
[/quote

Looks to me like Jim has some of the numbers in the wrong column.
Ballyneal is rated 20 in Links
Alotian is not rated 14 in Links - it is rated 84 in Links

No, Joel just took bits and pieces from the two different tables, one having Links on the left (Swap in) and one having GD on the left (swap out).

OK, thanks, numbers were a bit confusing in combination with Joel's commentary.
Seems that Links' list most closely conforms to gca board opinions.

[Anthony Gray]

North Berwick, Cruden Bay, Diamanté and Castle Stuart on the list makes this list the one I value the most. Pebble may be a little low.

  Anthony

[Kevin Pallier]

Kevin, did you try and talk to the guys at Links when you saw SFGC at inside 30 and Cal club not breaking top 100 in the world??

Brian - maybe not enough people have been fortunate to see the Cal. Club ? For mine - it's better than SFGC

Mark F - re: Kingston Heath - maybe its finally getting some of the recognition it deserves 

[Jim Colton]

.

[Sean_A]

I spent time today trying to do the impossible with ranking the courses I have played recently enough to remember them fairly well.  I found the task very hard! 

I was very surprised I needed to add Little Aston to the list.  

Tom - for the sake of consistency, Castletown Golf Links should be Isle of Man.  I added it to England because I didn't have a better choice.  But then, I don't know if the courses I add to the data base can be seen by everybody.  Do you know if they can?

Ciao  

[Tom Dunne]

Sean,

No, they can't. The mind reels at the potential for mischief if that were the case. You can add Castletown or any course to your ballot, but the system won't score that addition until it's entered into the database. The database saves manual additions in all caps, though, so we can easily scan and see what's new. We're planning on bringing in well over 100 courses in the next week or two--there'll be a list of names on the site. There are some really prominent Continentals that weren't on the original ballot.

It really is a difficult process, trying to make fine distinctions between excellent and closely matched courses, but it's that very difficulty that gives us confidence we're gathering useful info. On your end, of course, if you wake up one morning and decide to flip flop on RCD and Portrush, you CAN do that. Votes aren't set in stone--they are meant to evolve along with you as a golfer and course analyst.

[Garland Bayley]

.

Well said!

..

[paul cowley]

Thanks Bill.

[Kalen Braley]

So a buddy of mine put together this really cool ranking/list that looks to be a pretty damn good one to me.  Here's how he did it:

This is a composite list from the Digest, GolfWeek, GOLF, and Links lists where points are awarded as follows:
100 points for #1,
99 points for #2
On down to.....1 point for #100.
7 point bonus for each time a course appears on a list to benefit courses that appear at the bottom of multiple lists as compared to courses that only appear on one list in a somewhat higher spot.



Combined Magazine Top 100    
1    Pine Valley GC (Pine Valley, NJ)    426
2    Cypress Point Club (Pebble Beach, CA)    422
3    Shinnecock Hills GC (Southampton, NY)    417
4    Augusta National GC (Augusta, GA)    411
5    Oakmont CC (Oakmont, PA)    407
6    Sand Hills GC (Mullen, NE)    406
7    Merion GC--East (Ardmore, PA)    403
8    National GL America (Southampton, NY)    402
9    Pebble Beach Golf Links (Pebble Beach, CA)    398
10    Pacific Dunes GC (Bandon, OR)    392
11    Crystal Downs CC (Frankfort, MI)    384
12    Fishers Island Club (Fishers Island, NY)    384
13    Winged Foot GC--West (Mamaroneck, NY)    376
14    Chicago GC (Wheaton, IL)    367
15    Seminole GC (Juno Beach, FL)    365
16    Prairie Dunes GC (Hutchinson, KS)    363
17    San Francisco GC (San Francisco, CA)    350
18    Pinehurst Resort & CC #2 (Pinehurst, NC)    349
19    Whistling Straits GC--Straits (Sheboygan, WI)    344
20    The Riviera CC (Pacific Palisades, CA)    342
21    Oakland Hills CC--South (Bloomfield Hills, MI)    336
22    The Country Club--Clyde/Squirrel (Brookline, MA)    336
23    Friar's Head GC (Baiting Hollow, NY)    335
24    Los Angeles CC--North (Los Angeles, CA)    321
25    Bethpage State Park GC--Black (Farmingdale, NY)    318
26    Muirfield Village GC (Dublin, OH)    310
27    Bandon Dunes GC (Bandon, OR)    309
28    The Olympic Club--Lake (San Francisco, CA)    309
29    The Golf Club (New Albany, OH)    304
30    The Ocean Course (Kiawah Island, SC)    303
31    Garden City GC (Garden City, NY)    296
32    TPC at Sawgrass--Stadium (Ponte Vedra Beach, FL)    273
33    Southern Hills CC (Tulsa, OK)    269
34    Oak Hill CC--East (Rochester, NY)    266
35    Shadow Creek GC (Las Vegas, NV)    264
36    Baltusrol GC--Lower (Springfield, NJ)    260
37    Wade Hampton GC (Cashiers, NC)    249
38    Ballyneal GC (Holyoke, CO)    248
39    Old MacDonald (Bandon, OR)    245
40    Sebonack GC (Southampton, NY)    243
41    The Honors Cse (Ooltewah, TN)    236
42    Shoreacres GC (Lake Bluff, IL)    233
43    Old Sandwich GC (Plymouth, MA)    224
44    Bandon Trails (Bandon, OR)    217
45    Spyglass Hill GC (Pebble Beach, CA)    216
46    Camargo Club (Indian Hill, OH)    216
47    Pete Dye GC (Bridgeport, WV)    209
48    Peachtree GC (Atlanta, GA)    205
49    Inverness Club (Toledo, OH)    195
50    Somerset Hills CC (Bernardsville, NJ)    194
51    Plainfield GC (Plainfield, NJ)    193
52    Kinloch GC (Manakin-Sabot, VA)    190
53    Maidstone Club (East Hampton, NY)    188
54    Winged Foot GC--East (Mamaroneck, NY)    179
55    Medinah CC #3 (Medinah, IL)    175
56    Valley Club of Montecito (Santa Barbara, CA)    174
57    Boston GC (Hingham, MA)    172
58    Pasatiempo GC (Santa Cruz, CA)    171
59    Chambers Bay GC (University Place, WA)    164
60    Calusa Pines GC (Naples, FL)    153
61    Gozzer Ranch GC (Harrison, ID)    151
62    The Alotian Club (Roland, AR)    150
63    Quaker Ridge GC (Scarsdale, NY)    150
64    Cse @ Yale (New Haven, CT)    145
65    Myopia Hunt Club (Hamilton, MA)    142
66    Interlachen CC (Edina, MN)    134
67    Monterey Peninsula CC--Shore (Pebble Bch, CA)    134
68    Scioto CC (Columbus, OH)    133
69    Newport CC (Newport, RI)    128
70    Harbour Town GL (Hilton Head Island, SC)    127
71    Yeaman's Hall Club (Hanahan, SC)    123
72    East Lake GC (Atlanta, GA)    120
73    Milwaukee CC (River Hills, WI)    115
74    Rock Creek Cattle Co. (Deer Lodge, MT)    111
75    Castle Pines GC (Castle Rock, CO)    107
76    Arcadia Bluffs GC (Arcadia, MI)    106
77    Cherry Hills CC (Englewood, CO)    105
78    California Golf Club (So. San Franciso, CA)    97
79    Wannamoisett CC (Rumford, RI)    95
80    The Kingsley Club (Kingsley, MI)    95
81    Olympia Fields CC--North (Olympia Fields, IL)    93
82    Kittansett Club (Marion, MA)    93
83    Nanea GC (Kailua-Kona, HI)    90
84    Mountaintop GC (Cashiers, NC)    89
85    Double Eagle Club (Galena, OH)    88
86    Congressional CC--Blue (Bethesda, MD)    88
87    Dallas National GC (Dallas, TX)    83
88    Piping Rock (Locust Valley, NY)    82
89    Whispering Pines (Trinity, TX)    79
90    Baltusrol GC--Upper (Springfield, NJ)    74
91    Baltimore CC--East (Timonium, MD)    73
92    Victoria National GC (Newburgh, IN)    73
93    Forest Highlands GC--Canyon (Flagstaff, AZ)    72
94    Canyata GC (Marshall, IL)    69
95    Huntsman Springs GC (Driggs, ID)    68
96    Galloway National GC (Galloway, NJ)    66
97    Club at Black Rock (Coeur d'Alene, ID)    66
98    Shooting Star GC (Teton Village, WY)    64
99    Blackwolf Run GC--River (Kohler, WI)    60
100    Eagle Point GC (Wilmington, NC)    60

[Jim Franklin]

Rock Creek still too far down. I am glad Sahalee didn't crack the top 100.

[Sven Nilsen]

Kalen,

Would love to see that list if GD were taken out of the equation.  They seem to mess everything up.

Sven

[Michael George]

Rock Creek still too far down. I am glad Sahalee didn't crack the top 100.

Jim - You like any list that has Baltimore CC in the top 100   Although in all honesty, I don't know anyone that has played it that does not include it in their top 100.

Is Canyata the most polarizing golf course in the US?  GD has it very high and others don't think it is top 250.  What are people's thoughts on Canyata? 

Also is there anyone here that has played Double Eagle that thinks it is top 100.  Very private, well maintained but the course is not top 200 IMHO.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,

Would love to see that list if GD were taken out of the equation.  They seem to mess everything up.

Sven

Sven,

By assigning those extra "bonus" points...it actually had the effect of removing more GD courses from the final list than any other magazines list. 

I think GD has a pretty solid top 50, its the bottom 51 to 100 where things get a little skewampus.  I suspect GD also has the biggest pool of raters over any other list, so with more people you get more variabilty, hence the varied results.

[Jud_T]

  I suspect GD also has the biggest pool of raters over any other list, so with more people you get more variabilty, hence the varied results.


I don't recall this concept from my Stats classes...

[Kalen Braley]

  I suspect GD also has the biggest pool of raters over any other list, so with more people you get more variabilty, hence the varied results.


I don't recall this concept from my Stats classes...

Jud,

Please elaborate.  Are you saying 30 raters will produce the same result as 800 raters?

[Jud_T]

I'm saying more raters produces more homogenized results, not less, therefore it's Digest's criteria that's the real issue.

[Terry Lavin]

I know that it is fashionable in this here neighborhood to bang on Golf Digest's method of rating golf courses.  And I recognize that its list does have some outliers that I just cannot fathom, like the manifestly unworthy Rich Harvest here in greater Chicagoland, but I think there's nothing wrong with including resistance to par/difficulty in a rating for a Top 100 golf course.  Maybe that's heresy, but it seems to have as much validity as the prized-in-gca-land "walk in the park" factor of Golfweek.  If you want to talk about homogeneity of results, there's plenty of evidence of that in GW's list, too.

[Kalen Braley]

Jud,

I still think there are other things at play here that can explain this.

If the majority of golfers on Golf Digest are "regional raters"...meaning they don't travel more than a few hundred miles from home to play the vast majority of thier golf...then couldn't we see bias in the numbers where they rate the best courses they've seen fairly high.

As compared to say a smaller group of 30 raters...who travel much more extensively and have seen a lot more courses, hence more data points to rely on that just mostly regional courses.

Its just a hypothesis, nut would be interesting to see how "mobile/well traveled" each set of raters are for thier respective magazines.

[Kalen Braley]

P.S.  Jud,  I'm not so sure I agree with your premise about more=homogenous.

For example,

If we polled everyone in the U.S. as to what thier religion is...I'm guessing we would have a fairly homogenous result that was mostly Christianity.

But if we polled everyone in the world, which is a much bigger sample size, the result would become far more heterogeneos in that now there would be Christianity, Judeaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc, etc.

[Michael George]

I know that it is fashionable in this here neighborhood to bang on Golf Digest's method of rating golf courses.  And I recognize that its list does have some outliers that I just cannot fathom, like the manifestly unworthy Rich Harvest here in greater Chicagoland, but I think there's nothing wrong with including resistance to par/difficulty in a rating for a Top 100 golf course.  Maybe that's heresy, but it seems to have as much validity as the prized-in-gca-land "walk in the park" factor of Golfweek.  If you want to talk about homogeneity of results, there's plenty of evidence of that in GW's list, too.

I agree with your post.  One question - does Golf Digest also have a category for playability.  If they are going to penalize a course for being not hard enough, they should also penalize the courses for being too hard and thus not playable for the average golfer.  IF they do, it is entirely fair.

[Jim Colton]

I know that it is fashionable in this here neighborhood to bang on Golf Digest's method of rating golf courses.  And I recognize that its list does have some outliers that I just cannot fathom, like the manifestly unworthy Rich Harvest here in greater Chicagoland, but I think there's nothing wrong with including resistance to par/difficulty in a rating for a Top 100 golf course.  Maybe that's heresy, but it seems to have as much validity as the prized-in-gca-land "walk in the park" factor of Golfweek.  If you want to talk about homogeneity of results, there's plenty of evidence of that in GW's list, too.

Terry,

I think the difference is Golf Digest rigidly decides that Resistance to Scoring is 1/8th of what makes a golf course great. Golfweek has its Walk in the Park as a category, but unless I'm mistaken, the amount that that particular category makes up a Given rater's final score isn't fixed -- it might be everything to one panelist and completely irrelevant to another. The publications other than GD let their panelists decide what's important to them. Golf Digest trusts their panelists enough to quantify things like Shot Values and Ambience but not enough to decide which categories are important to them.

[Jud_T]

Michael,

http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/2011-05/100-greatest-golf-courses-methodology