Fire Away - Links Magazine Top 100

[Jim Colton]

52 USA courses in the world list. Wonder how that compares with the other lists...

Sean, I think there are exactly 50 in the Golf Mag list. (EDIT: Confirm Valley Club is #50 US)

That top 100 composite site has 47 US in the World 100 (Camargo is last one)

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Waht I like about the list is that it is not motivated at all by commercial interests..panelists have no commercial advantage to any selections, as such I think you see some surprising highs and lows of venues versus other polls.
I think this poll is very "true" in terms of guys who play golf and know what they like, rather than voting the way they are supposed to, on the basis of reputation.

[jeffwarne]

52 USA courses in the world list. Wonder how that compares with the other lists...

A bit surprised Huntsman and Colorado GC made the US lists..Trying to think of surprising omissions and aren't seeing anything off the top of my head...

7 out of the top 10 courses in the world from the US, and only 2 actual links courses.
from a magazine called "Links"

edit:I like the list and notice a definite break from the status quo

[Jim Colton]

Here you go...comparison to Top 50 of Golf Mag and Golf Digest.

SWAP OUT = In Mag x Top 50, not in Links Top 50
SWAP IN = In Links Top 50, not in Mag x Top 50

GOLF MAG WORLD
   TOP 50 SWAP OUT
43   Olympic Club (Lake) (76)
44   Whistling Straits (64)
45   Kiawah Island (Ocean Course) (58)
46   Portmarnock (Old) (59)
48   Royal Troon (66)
49   Nine Bridges (NR)
50   Garden City GC (51)

   TOP 50 SWAP IN
25   Morfontaine (55)
38   Ballyneal (79)
41   Woodhall Spa (Hotchkin) (59)
45   North Berwick (West) (89)
47   Royal Lytham & St. Annes (57)
49   Old Macdonald (74)
50   Ganton (66)

GOLF MAG US
   TOP 50 SWAP OUT
37   Medinah (89)
40   Quaker Ridge (53)
41   Inverness (56)
44   Winged Foot East (62)
45   Harbour Town (71)
48   Nanea (78)
49   Chambers Bay (55)

   TOP 50 SWAP IN
33   The Course at Yale (71)
36   Bandon Trails (54)
38   Pasatiempo (66)
41   Myopia Hunt (83)
42   Boston GC (78)
46   Shadow Creek (60)
48   Kittansett (59)

GOLF DIGEST US (Wow!)
   TOP 50 SWAP OUT
14   Alotian Club (84)
20   Wade Hampton (60)
23   Medinah (89)
29   Castle Pines (NR)
29   The Honors Course (67)
35   Victoria National (NR)
39   Canyata (NR)
42   GC at Black Rock (NR)
43   Peachtree (52)
44   Sebonack (57)
45   Pete Dye GC (58)
46   Kinloch (68)
48   Eagle Point (NR)
49   Arcadia Bluffs (NR)
50   Sahalee (NR)

   TOP 50 SWAP IN
20   Ballyneal (95)
26   Old Macdonald (NR)
27   Garden City (53)
30   Shoreacres (92)
31   Camargo (NR)
33   The Course at Yale (NR)
34   Valley Club of Montecito (NR)
36   Bandon Trails (63)
37   Maidstone (93)
38   Pasatiempo (NR)
41   Myopia Hunt
42   Boston GC (89)
43   Somerset Hills (93)
47   Old Sandwich (89)
48   Kittansett (64)

It'll take more time to compare to GW, as I'd have to split between classic and modern.

[Jim Nugent]

Can anyone explain what the scores mean (i.e. how they get them) and who the raters are? 

[Adam Clayman]

It would also be interesting to see how this list diverges from Daniel Wexler's guide. I don't own the book, but I do see one glaring difference.

Well done Tom!

[Matt Bosela]

Well done to Tom and his panel of raters.  This list is easily the best I've seen in recent times and rankings generally seem to be in line with the sensibilities of our group here at GCA.  Nice to see courses like Ballyneal, Yale and even Highlands Links in their rightful place.

I would guess a good percentage of the 105 raters are members here at this site.

[Tom_Doak]

Just curious as to how this compares to the "unofficial GCA ratings" that one of our young posters sorted out a year ago.  It looks like it has a lot of similarities.

[Bill_McBride]

Like this best of any list I've seen, happy I've played 26 of each list - although Cal Club was 20 years ago.

Where is Capilano?    Where is Royal Cinque Ports?   Those to me are notable exceptions.

Glad to see the Bandon courses all highly rated.

Very glad to see both Kingsley and Ballyneal highly placed.

[Sean Leary]

Just curious as to how this compares to the "unofficial GCA ratings" that one of our young posters sorted out a year ago.  It looks like it has a lot of similarities.

See Matt's post above yours...

[Jim Colton]

Just curious as to how this compares to the "unofficial GCA ratings" that one of our young posters sorted out a year ago.  It looks like it has a lot of similarities.

Tom, there are some similarities, but it doesn't look like you're faring quite as well in Links100 list. Cape Kidnappers was the only one I saw that was higher on Links100 than the unofficial GCA.

Man, my work productivity is taking a hit today.

   TOP 50 SWAP OUT
28   Highlands Links (57)
39   St. George's Hill (Red & Blue) (69)
41   The Course at Yale (70)
42   Sebonack (NR)
43   Rock Creek Cattle Company (NR)
44   Rye (Old) (55)
45   St. Enodoc (NR)
46   Swinley Forest (65)
49   Pasatiempo (80)

   TOP 50 SWAP IN
25   Morfontaine
35   Hirono
39   Los Angeles (North) (54)
42   Royal Birkdale (51)
43   Casa de Campo (Teeth of the Dog) (59)
46   Oakland Hills (South) (87)
47   Royal Lytham & St. Annes (85)
49   Old Macdonald
50   Ganton (71)

Note: Morf & Hirono didn't meet Ian's 10-vote cut-off, and Old Mac wasn't on the ballot.

Overall, there seems to be a GCA tilt to the Links list relative to Golf Magazine and especially Golf Digest, but that seems appropriate given their target readership. But looking at the two lists here, it seems more conventional than just the GCA conventional wisdom.

[Tim Bert]

Deleted. Pretty sure I misinterpreted Bill's question.

[Tom Dunne]

This might help answer some of the questions being asked:

http://www.linksmagazine.com/best_of_golf/welcome-to-the-links100

Joel Stewart,

There is no set criteria for voting. Panelists are anonymous by default--some will definitely keep it that way, while others will be coming forward on the microsite to talk about how they created their ballots.

Jim Nugent,

The numbers are just output from the statistical model meant to show how far apart one course is from another. The 10 point scale was more or less an arbitrary selection.

[Sven Nilsen]

Here's a breakdown of the modern courses with architects.  I count 8 for Dye, 6 for C&C, 5 for Doak, 5 for Fazio, 3 for Kidd and 3 for Nicklaus.  If anyone can find the Post-1995 list that was compiled a while back, it would make for an interesting comparison.

1.  Sand Hills (1)             C&C
2.  Pacific Dunes (2)          Doak
3.  Friar's Head (5)             C&C
4.  Ballyneal (6)             Doak
5.  Old MacDonald (3)     Doak, Urbina, et al.
6.  The Golf Club (9)             Dye
7.  Kiawah Ocean   (20)          Dye
8.  Whistling Straits (4)     Dye
9.  Bandon Trails (29)             C&C
10. Bandon Dunes (7)     Kidd
11. Muirfiled Village (12)     Nicklaus
12. Boston GC (21)             Hanse
13. Sawgrass (18)             Dye
14. Shadow Creek (11)     Fazio
15. Old Sandwich (13)     C&C
16. Gozzer Ranch (22)             Fazio
17. Chambers Bay (25)     RTJ Jr.
18. Sebonack (             Doak/Nicklaus
19. Pete Dye GC (10)             Dye
20. Monterrey Shores (41)      Strantz
21.  Wade Hampton (19)     Fazio
22. Kingsley (26)             DeVries
23. Rock Creek (15)             Doak
24. The Honors Course (17)     Dye
25. Kinloch (14)                     George
26. Calusa Pines (31)             Hurdzan & Fry
27. Spyglass Hill (16)             RTJ Sr.
28. Harbour Town (42)     Dye
29. Forest Highlands (54)     Morrish & Weiskopf
30. Kapalua Plantation (77)     C&C
31. Nanea (NR)                     Kidd
32. The Alotian (NR)             Fazio
33. Huntsman Springs (30)     Kidd
34. Colorado (37)             C&C
35. Blackwolf Run (46)     Dye
36. Whispering Pines (32)     Nicklaus?/Williams
37. Shooting Star (24)     Fazio
38. Sutton Bay (56)             Marsh
39. Prairie Club (NR)             Lehman

Courses in the GW Top 50 Modern but not in the Links Top 100 - Mountaintop, Galloway National, Arcadia Bluffs, Double Eagle, Dallas National, Dunes Club, Bayonne, Castle Pines, Desert Forest, Mayacama, World Woods (Pine Barrens), Diamond Creek, Fallen Oak, Oak Tree, Patriot, Club at Cuscowilla, Martis Camp

Edited to note the GW Modern ranking for each in parens.  

[Howard Riefs]

If anyone can find the Post-1995 list that was compiled a while back, it would make for an interesting comparison.

Here's the site's Post-Modern ranking from last summer.

REVISED TOP 25
1. Sand Hills (62)
2. Pacific Dunes (106)
3. Barnbougle Dunes (23)
4. Ballyneal (70)
5. Friars Head (52)
6. Wolf Point (7)
7. Ellerston (3)
8. Cape Kidnappers (13)
9. Rock Creek (28)
10. Old Macdonald (62)
11. Lost Farm (17)
12. Castle Stuart (11)
13. Kingsley Club (50)
14. Old Sandwich (19)
15. Bandon Trails (93)
16. Kingsbarns (41)
17. Sebonack (41)
18. Diamante (
19. Cal Club (27)
20. Bandon Dunes (98)
21. Gozzer Ranch (9)
22. Whistling Straits (Straits) (53)
23. Boston Golf Club (16)
24. Alotian Club (9)
25. Chambers Bay (44)

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48963.275.html

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Jim,
The GCA Tilt that you refer to , is the same thing I belive...for once this is a poll conducted by individuals who love good golf courses without any axes to grind and voting purely on what they like...uninhibited by any restraints...that is why there is so little disagreement coming from this thread.
When was the last time a top of anything was published on this site and created such a love fest

[mike_malone]

 I was surprised by two things as a Philly guy. One, more than 2 needed from Philly and two, I played 19 on the world list but only 11 on the US list. Overall I liked it.

[Tom Dunne]

My cursory scan of the panel has GCA participants in the 15-20 range. Some of that number includes architects/industry types who would've been invited anyway, and there are a handful of others who are irregular posters at best. There's no question GCA influenced LINKS' original list, but some 75-80% of the panel have no direct connection to the site.

[Brad Tufts]

Looks like the "candidate" list needs a bit of editing....I'm counting 10-15 courses listed twice...like "Boston GC" and "Boston Golf Club".

And a country entitled "VA" including Ansley GC in Georgia...

[Simon Holt]

Cool list Tom.  Refreshing if nothing else.

[David Cronheim]

I guess I'm not too excited that TPC Sawgrass cracked the top 50. I played it last November and think it's incredibly overrated. #17 is #17, but beyond that I don't think it's anything to write home about.

[Michael George]

Tom - great job on the list.  Very well done.  I am most intrigued by the "hottest and 'coldest" courses factor.  Will be interesting to see how quickly a new course can jump up the list and how volatile it will be once it is. For instance, where Cabot Links originally ranks versus settles.  

IMHO, the only course that I think does not belong in this ranking is The Homestead (Cascades) - love the design, but maintenance and other changes should cause it to fall out of top 100.  Has potential to be top 50 if a significant restoration was done.

In place of The Homestead, I would insert Victoria National.

Other Courses that were omitted that based on my experience or people I trust, I would have liked to see were (but don't know who I would bump) - Dismal River (to prove I am not a Nicklaus hater ), Ballyhack (based on reports from Dixie Cup - even in horrendous conditions), Brookside (once you play it, it will never leave your top 100 - Jonathan Becker and I need more of you to see it - maybe I should put together a gca outing) and Lancaster (really looking forward to seeing restoration).

[Mark Saltzman]

Brookside (once you play it, it will never leave your top 100 - Jonathan Becker and I need more of you to see it - maybe I should put together a gca outing) and Lancaster (really looking forward to seeing restoration).

IN!

And I agree about Victoria National -- a surprising omission.

[Chris Johnston]

Other Courses that were omitted that based on my experience or people I trust, I would have liked to see were (but don't know who I would bump) - Dismal River (to prove I am not a Nicklaus hater ), Ballyhack (based on reports from Dixie Cup - even in horrendous conditions), Brookside (once you play it, it will never leave your top 100 - Jonathan Becker and I need more of you to see it - maybe I should put together a gca outing) and Lancaster (really looking forward to seeing restoration).

Michael -

Dismal is a "you love it more the more you play it" kind of course.  Similar, to me, a bit like Cruden Bay.  One or two rounds don't tell her story.  I've found a lot of great ones are like that.

Thanks for believing we belong among the ranked.  I happen to believe our course is spectacular and unique - it's certainly one if the best I have played.  If we were ranked, I'm afraid we'd have to change out the 201 yardage markers! 

I agree with you on Brookside, 100%.  Haven't played Lancaster but hope to someday.

[Joel_Stewart]

GOLF MAG WORLD
   TOP 50 SWAP OUT
43   Olympic Club (Lake) (76)

37   Medinah (89)

33   The Course at Yale (71)

14   Alotian Club (84)

20   Ballyneal (95)

These are the 5 with the biggest differences.  These are pretty large differences. 

I haven't played Ballyneal but I like the list, Olympic's recent work is horrible and they deserve to be knocked down.  Medinah is just amazing they make any list?  Yale is coming along, still has some more work to go.  Alotian looks hard, plays easy and over time will fall once the hype wears out.