Mickelson seeks to renovate Torrey Pines north

[Howard Riefs]

According to today's San Diego Union-Tribune, Mickelson and the city of San Diego are in talks to develop a proposal to renovate the north course at Torrey Pines. Mickelson will do the work gratis.

The article says Lefty's "top priority would be to keep it enjoyable for the average golfer. He is said to be sensitive to the concerns by locals who don’t want the demanding South Course to have a twin brother."

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2012/jan/31/tp-mickelson-mulls-fix-for-north-course/

We all know Mickelson is a vocal critic of Rees' work on the south course. Is this his way of 'putting a thumb in Rees' eye' -- "This is the way you renovate a course..."  Perhaps a defensive measure of blocking Rees from touching yet another Torrey course?  

Or is there really a need to renovate the course?


<Edited above question per Kirk's #2 point below>

[Kirk Gill]

Two questions come to mind - since I haven't played the course.

1. How in need of renovation is it?

2. If it could use some renovation, why does the fact that it caters to locals make a bit of difference?

[PCCraig]

Mickelson should leave the design work to the professionals, regardless of if the North Course needs a renovation or not.

[Anthony Butler]

The article says Lefty's "top priority would be to keep it enjoyable for the average golfer."

Based on his play there last week, he's eminently qualified for this project...

[George Freeman]

Mickelson should leave the design work to the professionals, regardless of if the North Course needs a renovation or not.

Pat - I think if Mickelson's name recognition and influence can get the ball rolling on a project like this, all the better.  Phil would obviously need the help of a professional to do any meaningful renovation of the course.  The choice in that partner would be the meaningful one.

I have only played each course once, but from what I remember and what some locals think, if renovated properly the North Course could outshine the South.  The key is to not to try to turn the North Course into another "Championship Course" with a +7,600 yard scorecard, etc.  It sounds like Mickelson shares those feelings, which is great and paramount.

[Pete Lavallee]

The City contemplated a redesign several years ago, thinking that they could charge twice as much to tourists for a redesigned course; green fees are $100 on the North for those who don't have a City card on the weekends. This was met with vehement opposition from local golfers who didn't want the North turned into a torture test like the South. The City claimed that the greens weren't draining well and they  needed to convert them to USGA greens like the South now has. Luckily the locals saw through this and nothing has been done.

The main complaint now is that the bunkers are "tired". It is true that they have morphed into "puddles of sand" and a bunker rebuild would add character to the course. Length is not really an issue, with the course palying over 7000 yards from the black tees; which are never open for local golfers, they can only play off the original blue tees. Fairways were actually widened this year at the request of the PGA Tour. Some fairways on the North were less than 20 yards wide and none were wider than 25 yards. Fairway width remains constant throughout the year; it took several months to scalp and regrow fairways in the recent expansion.

The other major gripe is that some greens have too much slope. The marvelous 6th hole is often cited as the prime offender. These greens are perfectly sloped for the normal speeds we experience; there's nothing wrong with a little butt puckering when you leave yourself out of position above the hole. But apparently Tour Pros  do not like to be embarrassed and would prefer all surfaces as flat as possible. Even Todd Leonard, our local golf writer, had called for flattening the most severe greens on the North earlier this year. That's an opnion I can't get behind; at least he indicated that whoever does the work not try and add his stamp to the course and just do a behind the scenes restoration.

[Terry Lavin]

Give it to him, but only if he teams up with Rees Jones.

[Brian Finn]

I played about 150 rounds at the 2 Torrey Pines courses between 2005 and 2009, with probably 60% of those rounds on the North.  In my very humble opinion, the North Course would benefit from a renovation, in the sense that it could use a "freshening up."  Given freedom to change certain aspects of the course (mainly bunkers, as others have already suggested), I believe a professional architect could improve the course, but mostly in pretty subtle ways.   Done right, I think the general public would appreciate such changes, assuming the work does not fundamentally alter the character of the course.  However, regardless of the scope and quality of the work, if the city raises rates, the vast majority of locals will be extremely unhappy. 

Regarding the course architecture, the oceanfront setting and the fact it is a great course for walkers are the best things TP North has going for it.  The stunning views from many points on the course (such as #1 green, #2 tee, approach into #5, #6, #7) frame the course so beautifully, and Bell seemed to make better use of the cliffs/canyons on the North, which I think enhances the look and feel of certain holes, particularly for the everyday (non-gca enthusiast) golfer.  That is not to say there are not strong golf holes on the merit of their design.  My favorite holes are #4, #5, #7, #11, #13.  The one place that I think is really in need of substantial re-design (and may even have a little space to use) is #17.   I find it boring, ugly, weak, and out of character with the rest of the course.  I also love that the North is a pretty easy (and beautiful) walk.  There are a couple of hills that get your heart pumping a little, but the terrain is mostly manageable.  Plus, the mental stress and frustration often encountered over on the South is nearly nonexistent on the North.  I think that is another big reason locals love the North so much (great views, lower price, far easier scoring...adds up for most weekend warriors). 

On the other hand, I don't think most tour players will change their opinion much, regardless of the changes made.  Perhaps they'd appreciate a few flatter greens and wider fairways (and I can't think of why you would mess with the greens there), but for tour players that course is already too easy.  As Pat Perez mentions, there is not much room to lengthen it, and I don't think lengthening the course would really accomplish anything anyway. 

Mickelson may not be the right guy for the job, but he is a beloved local son, so it shouldn't shock anyone if he gets the nod.  He has been lobbying to work on TP North for a few years now and from what I hear Gary Stephenson does some nice work.  So, assuming Stephenson is significantly involved on the renovation project, I would be supportive.  Of course, the city was a bit of a mess my whole 5 years in the area, so I would not be surprised if this were handled poorly. 

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I am pleased Phil did not like Rees work on the South. Nor did I. However, an experienced architect should handle the renovation. There are plenty in the area who would be thrilled to have this project.

[Alex Miller]

I actually think a lot can be done to the north, and I think a few more yards could be had while also bringing the canyons more into play. The best part about bringing the canyons into play is the widening of the fairways that could accompany this.

Hole 1: Widen fairways, redo all bunkers and move green back 50 yards adjacent to #2 tee. New green brings hazard into play long and turns an easy par 5 into a non-joke opener for the pros. Probably better for pace of play too.
Hole 2: Not bad as is and could be touched up only with bunkers, but could alternatively move green to "pro" tees on 3 and bring canyon into play for a driveable par 4. The tees for #3 would move to where #2s green currently is.
Hole 3: Make it closer to an eden and use canyon left as hazard
Hole 4: Widen fairway and push it closer to canyon left. Renovate bunkers and green, but preserve desired angle from the left side.
Hole 5: I like it as is, but green could be lowered and moved next to canyon similar to #6 at Kapalua Plantation
Hole 6: Eliminate lefthand bunker and expand green using that area.
Hole 7: Widen fairway towards canyon and eliminate trees on the left. Renovate bunkers and move green back and to the left towards trouble.
Hole 8: Could build up new back tee and lengthen 20+ yards. Another hole that can be shifted towards the canyon with wider fairway.
Hole 9: I'm not sure what to do here besides updating the bunkers and possibly softening the front of the green. Suggestions?
Hole 10: Good green, the rest is not great. Could be an entirely new hole by the time one is finished with it.
Hole 11: Expand fairway left and eliminate fairway bunker. Sink the greenside bunker a bit but pretty good hole overall.
Hole 12: I don't know... make it a biarritz?
Hole 13: Reposition left fairway bunker and widen entrance to current green.
Hole 14: Eliminate first fairway bunker and add one behind and to the left of the second one. Good hole, sink bunkers and renovate green complex
Hole 15: Not sure yet, could be an entire new hole
Hole 16: Expand fairway onto left hillside and bring fairway bunker left slightly. Sink bunkers and renovate green complex
Hole 17: Fill ponds, enhance slopes on green to promote redan like qualities. +10 yards on tee.
Hole 18: Widen fairway to bunker edges. Keep green and renovate bunkers.

All these changes make the course harder, but actually give it a lot more width.

[Alex Miller]

As for whether or not there is a need for this, I think any opportunity for better GCA in Southern California should be taken. If the city could find a way to keep prices down post renovation that would be great. Otherwise Coronado is still not far away...

[Pete Lavallee]

All these changes make the course harder, but actually give it a lot more width.

Considering that Phil will work for Krispy Kreme's, the construction costs will be substanstial none the less. What exactly are you trying to gain by your considerable enhancements?

Harder for PGA Tour Pros, for exactly one day a year?

Harder for regulars SD golfers?

Better course which can pull in the $200 weekend green fee from out of towners?

I would suggest that the City"s motivation would be A and C; we all know that the majority of SD golfers do NOT want a tougher North Course. The word is that Billy Bell Jr was instructed to stay away from all canyon areas as they are part of the Torrey Pines State Preserve. The real problem is that once you start moving greens around, and I agree that a few could be more exciting if positioned closer to the canyon edge, you would probably have to reconstruct all of them to USGA standards. This costs a considerable sum of money. But why? As it stands the greens at Torrey North are only surpassed by Barona Creek foir interesting undulations. Do you really want the flat surfaces they have at the South Course? I know I don't. Frankly Torrey North is probably the finest example of Billy Bell Jr remaining in So. Cal. and to wipe it clean just seems wrong. Just fix the bunkers and feel free to widen the place to greater than 20-25 yards per fairway.

[Tim Nugent]

I wouldn't fret, Phil has always worked with the assistance of a Professional Golf course Architect.  Gary Stevenson, ASGCA has been in the mix  on past projects.

[Garland Bayley]

I wouldn't fret, Phil has always worked with the assistance of a Professional Golf course Architect.  Gary Stevenson, ASGCA has been in the mix  on past projects.

Thanks Tim,

Folks here don't complain when Ben Crenshaw gets another job. Ben is expressing the right philosophy, and backing it up with an architect partner. Why other than experience is Phil any different? We need more Ben and Bill; and Mike and Ian pairings, so perhaps we should be for the Phil and Gary one.

[Lou_Duran]

I wouldn't fret, Phil has always worked with the assistance of a Professional Golf course Architect.  Gary Stevenson, ASGCA has been in the mix  on past projects.

Gary Stephenson is Phil's architect.  He has done several fun/golfer friendly courses in north Texas- Tierra Verde, Frisco Lakes, Wild Horse (Dobson Ranch)- which can be set-up for competitions to provide a strong challenge.  San Diego could do much worse.

http://www.linksmen.com/aboutus.html

As to the North Course, without the views and the topography, it is a $25 course in Texas.  If the "regulars" prefer it to the South (and I've been told that several times), it either has to do with money (where even a $5 increase would be met with stiff opposition) or congestion.  If I got the local rate, I'd probably play the South 90% of the time, but I think much higher of the South than many on this site.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Well said Pete. Lou how many Texas courses have that view. lol

[Pete Lavallee]

I wouldn't fret, Phil has always worked with the assistance of a Professional Golf course Architect.  Gary Stevenson, ASGCA has been in the mix  on past projects.

Will Gary work for free also?

[Lou_Duran]

Well said Pete. Lou how many Texas courses have that view. lol

Certainly not Champions!    You left out the not-so-inconsequential qualifiers- "without the views and topography".

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

It would be a benefit to golfers if Phil were able to work on the North course.  For some reason he seems to be an easy target for criticism, much of which is undeserved.  He is nothing less than an asset to the game, and more so to the type of architecture the majority of GCA members appreciate.  How many tour pros regularly devote one day at tournament sites to playing classic courses?  For those who are unaware, Phil always plays a different course around New York on either Monday or Tuesday of the Barkley's.  Last time the Open was at Shinny he spent quite a bit of time at Friars Head and also played NGLA that week. In the past, he has played both the North and Balboa Park first off with friends.  He grew up playing Torrey both in tournamebts and fun play and probably knows the courses as well as anyone. Those who haved played Whisper Rock will attest that it is a course that is tough birdie, pretty hard par, very easy bogey( which is hard to do with Arizona restrictions on grassed acreage for golf courses), and a lot of fun.

[RJ_Daley]

I think it would be such a source of hometown pride, that Phil and his archie, Stevenson, would do a great job. 

But, the question should be what it adds to the cost of local players.  It is a county owned facility, and should be at a price point that locals can afford to play there.  Not that locals of La Jolla aren't generally very well off...  But, it should have a price point appropriate to the ideal of a municipal course and public recreation facility.  While the south course is the U.S. Open venue and major course for the PGA event, with the north being an auxiliary course for the yearly event, one can justify the higher cost of the South course.  But, the other one needs to keep its position as the lesser course in difficulty, and cost  geared to the everyday golfer. 

So, if Phil can pull that off, with reasonable costs maintained, then I'd be a cheerleader for him.  Otherwise if this gets to be a high priced municipal CCFAD, then forgetaboutit.

[Pete Lavallee]

RJ,

Just how is Phil going to move greens around, rebuild all 18 greens, add sandy barranca areas, make the course harder for Tour Pros but easier for ther local golfer and NOT cause an increase in fees? Sure, if he bankrolls the entire project it could happen, but will he  donate over $3MM to see that through? Don't forget, Rees did all his work for free, no greens on the South were moved, just rebuilt, bunkers were rebuilt and ir cost over $3MM! We are still paying for that to this day!

[Pete Lavallee]

Here is Todd Leonard's follow up article from today's Union Tribune:

Phil Mickelson spoke with great enthusiasm on Wednesday about his vision for refurbishing the North Course at Torrey Pines.


The city, including Mayor Jerry Sanders, are happy to hear that one of San Diego’s greatest golfing sons is so passionate about the work he could do.

But one brief meeting with the mayor during the Farmers Insurance Open last Thursday does not constitute a done deal, and there are still many details that would need to be worked out before Mickelson can even consider that he has secured the job.

“There has been one preliminary, 20-minute conversation about this,” said City Golf Manager Mark Marney. “From that conversation we think there is great potential. Phil is a local guy. We appreciate his passion for Torrey Pines. He understands the golf courses, and he understands the public play there and how the public feels about them.

“But there are a lot of issues that need to be looked at before we can actually look at executing anything.”

Marney said he had not met or spoken to Mickelson before the Thursday meeting.

For four months, the city has undertaken a public input process to develop a new plan for the operation of the golf courses. There has been hope that the plan would be finalized by the spring. In a December meeting, Marney discussed the top priorities for the North: more cart paths, shorter women’s tees and possibly rebuilding some severely sloped greens.

Mickelson’s ideas for the North would seem to imply extensive work, more time and more money.

In his pre-tournament press conference on Wednesday at the Waste Management Phoenix Open, Mickelson called the North a “beautiful canvas” that “has not been utilized properly.”

“It has been a dream of mine to turn that golf course into what I know it can be,” Mickelson said. “We will spend countless hours making sure that that course is right because the first goal is to make it playable. It's got to be playable for everybody. It's a daily golf course, municipal golf course. Everybody has got to go out and enjoy it.

“And the other thing is that the character is not being brought out right. The character of the canyons and the beauty of that place has not been pulled into the golf course. It's been separated. The canyons are on one of side of the golf course and then there's been no integration, so the character that we bring out will try to enhance the natural beauty that's already there."

Mickelson said he wants to have more "rustic areas ... a rough canyon look, if you will.

"I'm going to make the hard holes harder, but I'm going to make the easy holes easier. I want guys having fun on some of these holes. The second hole is going to be moved up and shorter, little examples. We pretty much have it mapped out how we want to make it.”

Marney said Mickelson did not talk about specific holes in the meeting, other than to say that there were ways to make holes more challenging for PGA Tour players, but not for the general public.

 Marney is well aware that local golfers are very touchy when it comes to changes at Torrey Pines. The South Course was redesigned from the ground up in 2001 by architect Rees Jones, and while the 2008 U.S. Open was secured, less-skilled golfers were blown off the course by its difficulty and price.

For any extensive work to be done on Torrey North, Marney said many questions would have to be answered: What is the plan? How much would it cost? What does the public think? What does the PGA Tour think? What does city administration think?

Marney said his priorities for the North include keeping the course playable for average golfers, maintaining prices close to the current green fees, avoiding significant rounds lost, and keeping staffing at its current level.

Marney said the next step is to discuss with Mickelson and his representatives their specific proposals. Mickelson has said he would do the renovation for “free,” but Marney isn’t yet clear on what the means. Mickelson would certainly need the help of an architect to do the design work, and the actual construction could run into the millions of dollars, depending on the extent of the job. The South Course work in ’01 cost about $3.5 million and Jones donated his fee to the project.

[Lou_Duran]

Pete,

You don't believe that a course can be both challenging for the one round each year for the pros AND fun and friendly for the everyday players during the remaining 51 weeks?  Maybe Phil and Gary can't do it, but certainly someone on the gca.com approved list can.

As to funding the construction, do as they have done on the South.  I pay what, $200?  A local, by virtue of living in the city (or getting a driver's license with the address of a relative or friend in the right zip code) pays $60?  Jack-up the fees on the North by $25 for those awful tourists and in 10 years you raise $5 Million or so for construction (@ 20,000 outside-SD rounds per year).  I'd think that at $125, a renovated North course would still be an attractive alternative to the South.  Or better yet, the city/cty could apply for some of those shovel-ready federal funds looking for a home.      

[Pete Lavallee]

Lou,

No, I don't think that can happen. Torrey North is a very tight property. Every hole has it's back, black tee against the property line; there is no room to expand the current layout past its 7000 yards total. There are only 2 par 4's where PGA Tour Pros will hit more than a wedge on a par 4. So with that many wedges in how do you make the course difficult for them? Well, defending par at the green comes to mind; but everyone wants to reduce green slopes which would make the course harder or easier? You tell me.

[jeffwarne]

Lou,

No, I don't think that can happen. Torrey North is a very tight property. Every hole has it's back, black tee against the property line; there is no room to expand the current layout past its 7000 yards total. There are only 2 par 4's where PGA Tour Pros will hit more than a wedge on a par 4. So with that many wedges in how do you make the course difficult for them? Well, defending par at the green comes to mind; but everyone wants to reduce green slopes which would make the course harder or easier? You tell me.

Go the other direction.
Increase the green slopes where driving it poorly would influence the second shot and slow down the greens to match the contours.
Would love to see an event where the greens ran at 8 with contour (so an uphill putt actually required more than a "stroke", yet a downhill putt could be scary fast) coupled with the other course where the greens ran faster.

I think Michelson's a good choice. (he's free and you've got to pay an architect either way)
has passion, imagination, wants to improve his hometown course,.
Hopefully we'll rate his job by the comments of the paying public and those operating/financing/maintaining the course, not the pros-although it would be icing on the cake if he pleased all three groups.