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Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Architecture and the Rio 2016 Summer Olympics
« Reply #25 on: February 01, 2012, 08:50:14 AM »

I'm pulling for Greg Norman.   ;)

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Architecture and the Rio 2016 Summer Olympics
« Reply #26 on: February 01, 2012, 09:48:53 AM »
Yeah, I feel that way, too.  Always prefer that gca get its due recognition, and if JN gets it, I hope his guys at least get some credit for doing a lot of the work.  Actually, I hope the shapers and contractors get their fair share of pub out of it too! 

Yes
Jack Nicklaus gets the project, but the shapers are lauded in the press.
Seriously?

I know Jack Nicklaus isn't the best firm for the job from an experience perspective.
From a personal perspective, his initial press release said he would be happy to create a Jack Nicklaus Olympic Golf Course - that is just batty.

Kalen
The city of Rio has had a few years to educate themselves about golf - just like you or I.
The people still by Budweiser, the people of Rio are having their choice made for them.

Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Architecture and the Rio 2016 Summer Olympics
« Reply #27 on: February 01, 2012, 10:04:04 AM »
Mike,

I said I hoped that his team would get some credit to show the world how a project comes together.  Not sure it would happen.

I actually have a hard time thinking that anyone could not think of JN and team as qualified to design an important tournament course.  Not really sure of the numbers of tourney sites for each competitor, but JN has to be up there and I am relatively sure he will pitch that he knows what makes a tournament course good.  He practically defined what good players still say constitutes good architecture for them. 

BTW, even if the course will be used as a public course later, I suspect the full complement of bunkers would be put in, and maybe a plan to remove many after the fact.  Not sure there is any good reason to design it from the perspective of later on, when the course will most likely have to be shut down and partially rebuilt because of all the spectators anyway.

Even from a minimalist perspective, his new work between us at Cimarron in Austin is very lay of the land.  Of course, I am not even sure the Oly site can be built in lay of the land style, nor am I convinced that anyone selected won't overdo the eye candy for its worldwide viewing appeal.   

And, he and Norman put a woman on the team, and I suspect they did so in response to some percieved desire of the committee to reflect their consensus as to what makes a good top women's competitive course.

I can understand your dislike for the personal marketing, but get real.  All of them will market the heck out of the fact that they were chosen to design the Oly course.  No reason for JN not to use his good name, and from time to time, clients like the idea of the architects name in the course name.

Personally, I hope that there is a Nuzzo trail someday!

Anyway, time will tell.


Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Randy Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Architecture and the Rio 2016 Summer Olympics
« Reply #28 on: February 01, 2012, 11:37:58 AM »
Jeff,
Your post are well written and with a lot of thought but JN confort zone is not in low to medium budget golf courses and this needs to be a medium budget at most with first class results, how many projects can you name that he did with that formula.

Tim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Architecture and the Rio 2016 Summer Olympics
« Reply #29 on: February 01, 2012, 11:42:55 AM »
Randy, JN already said he would design this course Pro Bono.  To me that says he wants it BAD.  To that end, I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't line up a financing partner (or maybe his own wallet) to submit "an offer they couldn't refuse". But, hey, I'm from Chicago, so maybe I'm a bit jaded.
Coasting is a downhill process

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Architecture and the Rio 2016 Summer Olympics
« Reply #30 on: February 01, 2012, 11:45:17 AM »
Randy,

I really don't have budget info on any JN course.  However, as mentioned to Mike, he has been moving a lot less earth lately, at DR, at Cimmaron in Texas, etc.   As to the other stuff, I presume irrigation, turf, what not will all cost the same no matter who is building the course.  (Don M may chime in on that, so I will say cost the same if apples to apples, like watering equal acreage AND presuming they are taking the same risk with a less than cadillac system.)

That in itself is an interesting question.  Do you save money on irrigation to meet budget and take a chance that the big show will be compromised by a brown course.  Naturally, many here and elsewhere might think that would be cool, so maybe so.  And, its not like they cannot water 24-7 weeks before the tournament, if they choose, because it won't be open for play before that, most likely.

For that matter, we also don't know that the budget won't change.  It would seem if there were one project where it should be flexible, this should be it as there are a lot of considerations in this project that probably haven't been well thought out by the owners at this point.  

I am not sure anyone has a lot of experience with that, although Pete Dye and Kiawa Island/Ryder Cup spring to mind as a close comparable.

As for Tim's pro bono comments, the budget goes up $300K right off the bat.  I also wonder if JN does it pro bono, how much Toro or Rainbird, among others will get twisted to do the same to keep the budget in line.   Maybe the largest Brazillian earthmover, as a sub, or Wadsworth or LUI etc. will all volunteer to discount prices just to be a part of it.  Many contractors are bidding at cost right now without the specter of great marketing potential.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2012, 11:47:58 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Golf Course Architecture and the Rio 2016 Summer Olympics
« Reply #31 on: February 01, 2012, 01:19:33 PM »
Jeff,
Had Chris Johnston been involved in the creation of the JN course at DR, I feel its safe to say it would have been built much more efficiently and I also believe it would have required less fix up work after completion. Its a very good golf course, CJ just would have managed it's creation better. Having an involved owner who is open to a different way of doing things just means you can get the Cadillac with out all the destination charges, desert protection charge, special under coating charge, special fabric protection charge, dealer holdback, and all the rest of that.

The irrigation system at DRII is 100% HDPE, single head computerized control course wide, and state of the art control system and sprinkler heads. Its a caddy, but even a cadillac can be bought at fleet if you know who to call.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2012, 01:21:24 PM by Don_Mahaffey »

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Architecture and the Rio 2016 Summer Olympics
« Reply #32 on: February 01, 2012, 01:36:59 PM »

The irrigation system at DRII is 100% HDPE, single head computerized control course wide, and state of the art control system and sprinkler heads. Its a caddy, but even a cadillac can be bought * at fleet if you know who to call.


*and maintained   ;D
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Golf Course Architecture and the Rio 2016 Summer Olympics
« Reply #33 on: February 01, 2012, 02:47:56 PM »
I think people are missing the boat in regards to advertising for the event needing a "big name".  It's the Olympics, it's going to get huge pub no matter who is involved as the architect.  The story will be that golf is back in the Olympics and not who designed the golf course.  The more I think about it, the interview and name recognition means nothing for actually promoting the event itself.  The word "Olympics" carries far more weight than Jack Nicklaus.

The other question I'd like to ask is, what is the actual payoff for having a pro (and/or female) that isn't a designer attached to the firm?  I am sure there are other females that are involved in this process that have been FAR more effectual in producing a plan than Annika or Lorena ever will be.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Architecture and the Rio 2016 Summer Olympics
« Reply #34 on: February 01, 2012, 03:37:29 PM »
According to her website Annika has "designed" 5 courses already...

http://www.annikasorenstam.com/Course_Design.htm

Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Architecture and the Rio 2016 Summer Olympics
« Reply #35 on: February 01, 2012, 05:44:37 PM »
Don,

Took me a while to understand your ongoing Caddy reference.  I had never heard of a destination charge or undercoating an irrigation system! 

As you and I have discussed, there are certainly many ways to skin a cat, and certainly a hands on owner, suitable contract method and dedicated construction personell are all part of the value engineering that goes into most projects.  I also think you and I agree that irrigation system designs are WAAAAAAY out of hand in most cases.  (I will get in trouble for saying this, but I bet Larry Rodgers chimes in on THAT) 

It seems the irrigation industry struggled all these years to put out enough water, and now they can do it, just in time for severe water restrictions to hit.  All to avoid even the slimmest chance of browing roughs.  It seems like overkill that started at Augusta and other high end clubs is trickling down to muni's like never before.  I would think this economy would quickly reverse that trend, but don't see it, so far at least.

Can we blame it on Rio?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Chris Johnston

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Architecture and the Rio 2016 Summer Olympics
« Reply #36 on: February 01, 2012, 06:00:31 PM »
The first and only rule is hire quality, passionate people, listen to them, work with them, ask questions, and let them do what they do.  The fact that I know what I like to eat doesn't mean I know much about cooking.  That's why there are absolutely terrific Chefs like Tom, Don, and their guys.





Michael Blake

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Architecture and the Rio 2016 Summer Olympics
« Reply #37 on: February 01, 2012, 06:20:37 PM »
The other question I'd like to ask is, what is the actual payoff for having a pro (and/or female) that isn't a designer attached to the firm? 

Ben, I don't know the answer.
But besides Annika, Lorena, & Karrie...Amy Alcott joined Gil's team and a retired Brazilian pro joined RTJII's tream.

Though I think Amy has some design experience.


Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Architecture and the Rio 2016 Summer Olympics
« Reply #38 on: February 01, 2012, 06:22:15 PM »
As someone who has never been part of the process of hiring an architect for a new course, I can't stop thinking that it would be great to be able to read written transcripts of the proposals and view whatever routing plans were submitted. I assume there are prohibitions against this, but it would be cool.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Architecture and the Rio 2016 Summer Olympics
« Reply #39 on: February 01, 2012, 06:40:53 PM »
Bill,


Sometimes they are public knowledge, other times they are not.  I think they are keeping these under wraps.

As an aside, the only reason I posted anything on this is that I have been part of literally 100's of these things (won about 50, lost more than twice that many!) and I figured you guys might be interested in how these things typically go down.  Of course, I have no inside info about how this committee works, so some will label this as all speculation, which it is.  But, in at least some respects, its informed speculation!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Architecture and the Rio 2016 Summer Olympics
« Reply #40 on: February 01, 2012, 07:09:01 PM »
Jeff,

How you rate my appraisal of the 4 candidates back on Page 1.  Was it ballpark based on their credentials?  :D

Here it is:

Quote
Lets break it down evaluator by evaulator

1)  City of RIO rep - This person will know zero about golf...this vote is a waste as it will likely be highly political.
2)  Organizer of the Games rep - Perhaps will know more than person 1...but once again I suspect this person will know little about courses and also be a very political vote.
3)  Course Operator Rep - This will likely be the most informed person, the one person I would seek out to make a good impression on.
4)  A rep from the IGF - You may as well just rubber stamp this vote now...no way he votes anything other than Jack!

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Golf Course Architecture and the Rio 2016 Summer Olympics
« Reply #41 on: February 01, 2012, 08:32:47 PM »
Kalen,
I sure hope your tongue in cheek with your evaluations....if not, I think you need to spend some time abroad. 

These people, especially those who live in Rio, are well aware of this once in a lifetime opportunity. I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt and guess that most are honest, ethical people who want the best for their city. I'll bet that committee is a lot more educated on the matter at hand then you give them credit for.

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Architecture and the Rio 2016 Summer Olympics
« Reply #42 on: February 01, 2012, 08:59:26 PM »
So, none of you hold Desmond Muirhead in contention....? Come on, he attended every Olympic Games since the 1960s +/-
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Architecture and the Rio 2016 Summer Olympics
« Reply #43 on: February 01, 2012, 09:19:10 PM »
Go over to Geoff's site  http://www.geoffshackelford.com/ and cast your unscientific vote of who will be chosen by the jury. It should fluctuate wildly as I cast the second vote.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Architecture and the Rio 2016 Summer Olympics
« Reply #44 on: February 01, 2012, 09:23:26 PM »
So, none of you hold Desmond Muirhead in contention....? Come on, he attended every Olympic Games since the 1960s +/-

I put his chances at just better than yours or Brauer's.   
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Randy Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Architecture and the Rio 2016 Summer Olympics
« Reply #45 on: February 01, 2012, 11:51:13 PM »
Ok  I am going on record, as the sole contributor of GCA from South America! You should respect my home town insigh and if you donīt maybe you will in the future. Few actucally know me but I am a person that tries to see the glass half full not half empty. I have no doubt what Tom D and Rennasance presents or presented will be far superior than the other seven candiadtes. TD and company will be selected! They are not the under dogs by any means or form! Golf idesign is evolving and improving and so is the polictics in the olympics and the human race in general. The outcome will show there is hope for the future in generally speaking terms and the future of growth in golf. If Jack wins I swear I will look for another way to make a living and if a surprize candidates wins, I will study and reconsider where the road less traveled leads. Likle most in the business I am down to my last three dollars and these three dollars i put on Doak and company! Its not nearly as complicated as many on this sight want to paint- Slam dunk-Doak and company! Granted I could be wroing, it happened once or twice before, For instance Spain winning the world cup in football when the talent was in the South American teams.

Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Architecture and the Rio 2016 Summer Olympics
« Reply #46 on: February 02, 2012, 05:28:41 PM »
TD and company will be selected! They are not the under dogs by any means or form! Golf idesign is evolving and improving and so is the polictics in the olympics and the human race in general. The outcome will show there is hope for the future in generally speaking terms and the future of growth in golf. If Jack wins I swear I will look for another way to make a living and if a surprize candidates wins, I will study and reconsider where the road less traveled leads. Likle most in the business I am down to my last three dollars and these three dollars i put on Doak and company!

Interim results from polling at GeoffShackelford.com.

http://poll.pollcode.com/tfj_result?v
Next!

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Architecture and the Rio 2016 Summer Olympics
« Reply #47 on: February 02, 2012, 05:48:19 PM »
How you rate my appraisal of the 4 candidates back on Page 1.  Was it ballpark based on their credentials? 

Here it is:

Lets break it down evaluator by evaulator

1)  City of RIO rep - This person will know zero about golf...this vote is a waste as it will likely be highly political.
2)  Organizer of the Games rep - Perhaps will know more than person 1...but once again I suspect this person will know little about courses and also be a very political vote.
3)  Course Operator Rep - This will likely be the most informed person, the one person I would seek out to make a good impression on.
4)  A rep from the IGF - You may as well just rubber stamp this vote now...no way he votes anything other than Jack!
[/i]

Kalen,

I don't know any of the details of the people, or the committee dynamics.  They all vary, but I will say that I doubt you are right on with the City of Rio guy.  Why?  Usually, cities (and the Oly games themselves) put someone on the committee who knows something about golf for such an important decision, not a clueless bastard!  Besides, he is the one said to have asked TD to put in a proposal, so my guess is he is a sophisticated traveling golfer, and has played one of TD's courses.  Or, maybe he has just read about him and his waterfront work, but he is obviously involved and somewhat informed.

BTW, don't know the politics again, but you might be correct that the course operator may influence it quite a bit.  Most informed from an ops and maintenance POV and might have pushed for a less flashy style.  It wouldn't suprise me if TD talked a bit about Common Ground to assuage this guy that he understands the practicality of things moving forward.

The good news for Tom is that it is most likely that he has one vote wrapped up, which could be huge.  (City guy) And the city guy may really have sway, since it is on city land and a city project, with the IOC as a short term tenant.  Even if the IGF guy has JN pegged, it would probably narrow the choice to those two from the original 8. 

Hey, maybe negotiations are under way for Sebonac South! ;D
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Architecture and the Rio 2016 Summer Olympics
« Reply #48 on: February 02, 2012, 06:05:34 PM »
Jack Nicklaus has a ton of 2nd place finishes.
He can handle runner-up one more time.

He should spend his time promoting golf in the Olympics not wasting his time on the details of building a course.

Cheers

I say the IGF vote goes to Tom
It could be a 2-2 tie like Jeff is suggesting.
Who gets to be the tie-breaker?
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Architecture and the Rio 2016 Summer Olympics
« Reply #49 on: February 03, 2012, 08:41:52 AM »
BTW, if my speculation above is correct, that the city guy played one of Tom's courses, and he wins the competion, it will be for the right reasons that any gca could accept - " We played some of all your courses, and we happened to like the courses of TD (of if not, then architect XX) best". 

While 7 firms are going to feel like they lost the super bowl and be down in the dumps for a while, I always feel least bad when the owner says something like that.  It's hard to argue that logic, even for the losing firms.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

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