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Howard Riefs

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Streamsong routing
« on: January 29, 2012, 09:30:50 PM »
Matt Ginella at Golf Digest wrote about his adventures at the PGA Merchandise Show.

http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/blogs/wheres-matty-g/2012/01/notes-best-of-booth-babes-from.html

Perhaps most noteworthy is that he released the routing of both the Blue (Doak) and Red (Coore & Crenshaw) courses at Streamsong. He notes that "The simultaneous and unprecedented build-off between popular design teams was described as a 'friendly competition.' So friendly, they've designed holes for each other. Competition breeds excellence. And given the talent level of the guys involved -- and after seeing pictures of the 600 acres they worked with -- it's safe to raise expectations."

http://twitpic.com/8dcahq/full

(I'm not able to embed at this moment, appreciate if somebody will...)

This should be fun to study. It certainly whets my appetite.

"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

George Freeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong routing
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2012, 10:21:16 PM »
« Last Edit: January 30, 2012, 07:30:39 AM by George Freeman »
Mayhugh is my hero!!

"I love creating great golf courses.  I love shaping earth...it's a canvas." - Donald J. Trump

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong routing
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2012, 11:43:28 PM »
Can someone remind me when these courses open?

FYI, the Blue course looks really neat.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong routing
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2012, 12:22:22 AM »
Mac
Why do you say the blue looks really neat?

I like the blue's change of directions and it seems more intimate
But it is just a sketch, I'm sure a lot has been done to the individual holes
And Tom has commented on the quality of Bill's holes too

Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Streamsong routing
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2012, 04:50:31 AM »
I had a handful of friends out there on Friday for a sneak preview of the Blue course, including Josh Smith and the lads from The Renaissance Club and [I kid you not] Matt Ward.  Sadly, Matt no longer posts here, so you won't hear a lot about the place.  Only he and Josh and David Lee stayed around for a tour of the Red course.  Perhaps Simon Holt will chime in about the Blue after he is finished hobnobbing with Augusta members and Belen Mozo.

If the general public has as much fun playing the courses as we did on Friday, they are going to be pretty busy!

P.S.  To pre-empt such questions ... the courses will open in October or November.  There will probably not be opportunities for sneak peeks or preview play, at least until the management company is on board ... the mining company is too concerned about safety issues, and if they start letting anyone play, the whole company will be out there every afternoon!

Brett_Morrissy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong routing
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2012, 05:50:45 AM »

It seems strange to look at a routing by both Renaissance  and C&C with carries over water.
Are there any examples where this has been done before by either of these firms?
My first thought is that some of the holes remind me of a run of the mill resort course with water, swallowing wayward golf balls.

Am I being to harsh? Of course, this may well change once we can see some ground shots. 

Tom, can you speak a little about the use of the water carries, was it just pragmatic and required,  were  you excited to include the water?
- is a bridge required on the P3 across the water 7?
@theflatsticker

Peter Sayegh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong routing
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2012, 06:29:30 AM »
Am I seeing this wrong? The transition from the 12th green to 13 tee on the blue course seems to cross the line of play of the 14th hole on the red course. Just curious.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong routing
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2012, 07:49:23 AM »
Mac
Why do you say the blue looks really neat?

I like the blue's change of directions and it seems more intimate
But it is just a sketch, I'm sure a lot has been done to the individual holes
And Tom has commented on the quality of Bill's holes too



Mike...

Please don't mistake what I am saying.  I am not saying the Red isn't good, when I say the Blue looks neat.  Not at all.  Literally, I went hole by hole through the routing of each and found myself saying to myself "Wow, that is neat!" on many of the Blue courses holes.  Simple as that.

Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Kris Shreiner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong routing
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2012, 09:29:45 AM »
I was fortunate to join Tom's merry little band that had a go at his fine effort at Streamsong. Tom, I'd have stayed for the RED Tour, but my ride had to get back to Orlando. I found myself peeking frequently over humps and mounds, both to see what was on C&C's ground AND to find more than a few of my wayward tee shots. Tom Doak is an excellent bird dog when it comes to marking and finding errant shots...thanks Tom!

Despite my generally wretched play, and VERY Scottish weather for significant portions of our play, I and the others REALLY enjoyed ourselves. The movement of the ground, neat greens, variety of options around the greens and natural feel throughout most of the routing all made for a quality presentation even though the course is still healing in.

Rusty, the affable and insightful superintendent there, was with us for most of the round; it was great to hear his views and experiences during the grow-in and what is hoped for as the property evolves. Seeing and learning that our own Kyle Harris was on the team down there was a welcome bonus. He's certainly fond of the place and his dedication to quality presentation is well known from his time in Philly. The courses are in great hands, that's for sure.

Overall, the turf was quite good for being in a newly planted, tender state. Rusty explained that all of the fairway grass was hand planted and the process, while time-consuming, seemed to be yielding an excellent sward. I believe he said it was 419, but I'm no turf-head, so Tom or others can correct me if I'm off there.

There were some significant carries on several holes for the shorter hitters from where we played. As Rusty was quick to mention, playing from the "proper tees" will be a wise move on these courses. You can struggle out there, but it wasn't unfair in the least. You just have to play golf.

The greens rolled EXTREMELY well! The was also good release on most of the holes when coming in from a distance(as many of mine were!) and this bodes well for the firmer, random bounces that we associate with linksy playing characteristics.

While not a difficult walk, it isn't a stroll. As the climate will deem carts as a necessary part of the dynamic, varying where they go will be important to ease turf wear. A quality caddie program, having well-trained forecaddies in particular, will be a valuable asset...the golf will not be easy here and the quality of the courses demands it from my view. Both Tom and Rusty confirmed the site is a breezy one, so the challenges should be exhilarating and varied.

The Streamsong team has just started setting the piling for a well-sited club house, having if I recall correctly, 12 upper floor rooms/suites. It will overlook a couple of smaller, interesting lakes and should have a wonderful setting around which the golf will sit. The larger hotel complex is planned to be well away from the golf. While it may be visable from the courses, it shouldn't detract too much from the atmosphere.

To sum it up, the potential for this property is impressive. While in a rural location, it's about 1 hour from Tampa and an 1 1/2 from Orlando, and both drives are fairly easy. If the amenities are complimentary, and the golf property service/staff has a non-corporate feel... elements reflected in the natural, inviting presentations that Tom and C&C have created...they should be quite successful. Getting that meld right will be the key, as there are a lot of options out there for the "retail/corporate golfer".

Tom, Rusty, Kyle and the rest of the team were superb hosts during our visit. Thank you gents for what was a memorable day!

Cheers,
Kris 8)
 
« Last Edit: January 31, 2012, 08:41:52 AM by Kris Shreiner »
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong routing
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2012, 10:50:30 AM »
Any suggestions for a composite course or courses?
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong routing
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2012, 11:48:30 AM »
OK - Am I the only one missing a hole on the C&C course?

I would say SIGNAGE or different tee makeup would be of paramount importance here.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong routing
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2012, 11:58:21 AM »
OK - Am I the only one missing a hole on the C&C course?


Greg - I suspect you are missing 7B - a short par 3.

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong routing
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2012, 12:06:12 PM »
OK - Am I the only one missing a hole on the C&C course?


Greg - I suspect you are missing 7B - a short par 3.


"B" is the Doak Course.

I'm going with 6R - another short par 3. There's no color designation on the green.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2012, 12:07:44 PM by Howard Riefs »
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Emile Bonfiglio

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong routing
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2012, 01:05:10 PM »
Just from the image above I like that some of the hole have shared fairways. I'm sure this will be a great course. Well done Tom.
You can follow me on twitter @luxhomemagpdx or instagram @option720

Tony Dear

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong routing
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2012, 01:57:29 PM »
I think both layouts look fantastic. Having just seen Mike Nuzzo's post about walkbacks and looking at the example he gave of what is possibly the worst routing in the world, it is so cool to see how the two Streamsong courses have been laid out. There are so many intriguing-looking holes, and the fact the turf is sand-based just adds to the appeal. I can't wait to play them. 
Tony

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong routing
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2012, 02:13:53 PM »
While we're making judgements based on a drawing super-imposed over a Sat pic..

Looks like 3, 5, and 7 have a fair amount of walk back on the blue course. As well as 12 green to 13 tee, and 13 green to 14 tee with a fair amount of walk forward.


Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong routing
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2012, 02:39:55 PM »
While we're making judgements based on a drawing super-imposed over a Sat pic..

Looks like 3, 5, and 7 have a fair amount of walk back on the blue course. As well as 12 green to 13 tee, and 13 green to 14 tee with a fair amount of walk forward.



Kalen,

Thanksgiving Point #7 is a "walkback" as Mike's post was about. There is no such thing as a walkforward given what Mike meant by a walkback.
Now exactly what do you mean?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Chris Johnston

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong routing
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2012, 02:42:20 PM »
Not real good with the photo but I can't wait to see these in person.

Two great Chefs - probably two incredible meals.

Simon Holt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong routing
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2012, 04:01:51 PM »
I had a handful of friends out there on Friday for a sneak preview of the Blue course, including Josh Smith and the lads from The Renaissance Club and [I kid you not] Matt Ward.  Sadly, Matt no longer posts here, so you won't hear a lot about the place.  Only he and Josh and David Lee stayed around for a tour of the Red course.  Perhaps Simon Holt will chime in about the Blue after he is finished hobnobbing with Augusta members and Belen Mozo.

If the general public has as much fun playing the courses as we did on Friday, they are going to be pretty busy!

P.S.  To pre-empt such questions ... the courses will open in October or November.  There will probably not be opportunities for sneak peeks or preview play, at least until the management company is on board ... the mining company is too concerned about safety issues, and if they start letting anyone play, the whole company will be out there every afternoon!


Ahh, Belen.  She was still distracting my swing yesterday.

I have to rush out so I will post a full report along with the paragraphs I owe you in the next couple of days.

I had great fun which should say it all.  The last place you think you are is Florida; my line when I got to the 7th tee was something along the lines of 'Holy s**t' which Tom followed by 'thats the reaction I was going for'

On the whole the greens are large which is why I laughed when Tom said they started out going for smaller ones.

There are some really stunning holes out there that link together really well.  Many of the holes you just fall off the greens onto the tees with 7 being more than worth the 'walkback' to 8.  It is just a great golf hole; who cares about a forced carry when its that good looking?

Tom pointed out 5 as perhaps one hole that would cause controversy and I completely agree.  Downwind it will be tough to hold the green with a back right pin.

Cool place, good turf to hit off, copious amounts of short grass, incredible landscape, awesome greens....and above all its really good fun.
2011 highlights- Royal Aberdeen, Loch Lomond, Moray Old, NGLA (always a pleasure), Muirfield Village, Saucon Valley, watching the new holes coming along at The Renaissance Club.

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong routing
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2012, 04:34:43 PM »
While we're making judgements based on a drawing super-imposed over a Sat pic..

Looks like 3, 5, and 7 have a fair amount of walk back on the blue course. As well as 12 green to 13 tee, and 13 green to 14 tee with a fair amount of walk forward.


Kalen
That is a sketch - it is difficult to draw with the precision you are describing
They do their best work in the field
They focus a great deal of attention on the spacing of greens and tees
From my experiences I will bet that they are going to be much closer than depicted
Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong routing
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2012, 04:37:49 PM »
While we're making judgements based on a drawing super-imposed over a Sat pic..

Looks like 3, 5, and 7 have a fair amount of walk back on the blue course. As well as 12 green to 13 tee, and 13 green to 14 tee with a fair amount of walk forward.


Kalen
That is a sketch - it is difficult to draw with the precision you are describing
They do their best work in the field
They focus a great deal of attention on the spacing of greens and tees
From my experiences I will bet that they are going to be much closer than depicted
Cheers


Mike,

I did know this..I was only trying to draw absurd conclusions based on a sketch like occurs on many a GCA thread.  ;)

See what happens when one tries to employ the Dan Kelly "emoticon free" rule!  ;D

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong routing
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2012, 05:45:01 PM »
OK - Am I the only one missing a hole on the C&C course?


Greg - I suspect you are missing 7B - a short par 3.


"B" is the Doak Course.

I'm going with 6R - another short par 3. There's no color designation on the green.

Howard's got it... and I will not divulge, to anyone here or to my employer, how much time I spent trying to locate the missing hole!

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong routing
« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2012, 05:50:03 PM »
Both routings look interesting for sure. I'm looking forward to seeing them both next winter in person. The reports I've heard from the construction site were stellar and that "pictures don't do the property justice." Should be fun!
H.P.S.

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong routing
« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2012, 05:55:45 PM »

Howard's got it... and I will not divulge, to anyone here or to my employer, how much time I spent trying to locate the missing hole!


Glad to help (you and your employer).  At least now you have a short story to tell when you get to #6 teebox:

"So, I was looking at the first, publicly released course map.... Hmmm, only 17? Where's the missing hole?"
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Streamsong routing
« Reply #24 on: January 30, 2012, 06:09:38 PM »
How short will 8R be?  Looks like it could be less than 100 yards.

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