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Mark_Rowlinson

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Analysis of the Confidential Guide
« on: January 29, 2012, 02:31:34 PM »
I don't have a copy of the Confidential Guide. Would those of you lucky enough to possess one like to analyse its contents to see:

If we can deduce that certain aspects of golf course design influenced Tom Doak's ratings more than others: routing, bunkering, strategy etc
If we can deduce that, at the time of writing, he liked the work of certain golden age architects more than others.
If we can deduce that, by their omission, there were certain designers' work with which he was less than happy.
If we can deduce that Tom was willing to see through certain defects such as poor maintenance, loss of firm and fast and so on.

I'm sure there are other criteria for analysing the book but, never having seen it, I can't suggest what.

If Tom reads this, perhaps he would like to say how his tastes may have changed over the years. I'm not asking for 'Course X should now be a 3 not a 4' but general trends - it's been some years since the Guide appeared.

Tim_Weiman

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Re: Analysis of the Confidential Guide
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2012, 09:57:52 PM »
Mark,

Unfortunately, all my golf architecture books are in storage, so I haven't had a look at the Confidental Guide in a while. But, one thing that stands out about the book is Tom's writing. Unlike so many writers who try to describe a course by describing every hole, Tom doesn't do this. Instead, Tom excels at summing up what stands out, what is significant about a course. The style is quite refreshing, really.

Truthfully, I was skeptical about the book at first for the reason Tom mentions in his introduction: should an aspiring young architect really write such a book? Is that how he should make his name? I thought not.

But, then, I put that concern aside and just read the book for what it was: a guide to help you sort out good from bad and, most importantly, which courses are worth going out of one's way to see.

Ironically, it was Tom's writing about a course quite near where I grew up that convinced me of the merits of the Guide. For all it's history, I was never thrilled with Winged Foot. But, then the Guide set me straight. WF isn't blessed with a great piece of property. The greatness is all the architecture, the greens, bunkers, etc. the Guide helped me sort that out and appreciate WF better for what it is. So, when I finally made to Melbourne, I may have come away more impressed with Kingston Heath than Royal Melbourne.  Well, maybe!

One other obvious point about the Guide: you don't have to read it from start to finish. It is great to just leave sitting nearby and read about a course or two every few days.
Tim Weiman

Mac Plumart

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Re: Analysis of the Confidential Guide
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2012, 11:35:35 PM »
Mark...

Yes, without question most of the questions you pose can be answered by looking within the Confidential Guide.

In fact, your first question...

"...can (we) deduce that certain aspects of golf course design influenced Tom Doak's ratings more than others: routing, bunkering, strategy etc"

is answered in the beginning of the book in Tom's own words.  I have it just three feet to my right on my bookshelf, but I am a bit too lazy to get up and crack the book open.  But I know that he talks about what he likes in golf courses and what will lead him to favoring particular courses and holes.  He speaks quite fondly of short par 4's, for example.

Your last question...

"...can (we) deduce that Tom was willing to see through certain defects such as poor maintenance, loss of firm and fast and so on."

is answered without any uncertainty.  He clearly states in the book that he looks for courses that are not dependent on high level maintenance practices in order to be considered good.  They need to be "good" in a more natural state of maintenance/nature.

And on your other questions...yes, I believe all can be deduced and/or answered unequivocably.  And I think it would be fun to dive into this.

One thing that stands out in my head right now regarding architects he might like, or not like, is that he has said on this very website that he prefers to judge golf courses...not architects.  Whether this is rhetoric or the truth is perhaps up for debate...but I agree with the principal.  Is any golf course by Architect Y bad?  Is every golf course by architect X great?  No, of course not.  But Tom did write a book on Mr. Mackenzie, if I am not mistaken.  And he seems to dislike template holes.  Just sayin'.

This could be a fun journey.

« Last Edit: January 29, 2012, 11:37:48 PM by Mac Plumart »
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Analysis of the Confidential Guide
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2012, 04:40:43 AM »
Mark:

One of the things about the book that people have a hard time with now, is that restorations have very little bearing on my opinion of a course.  I was liable to rate the courses on the basis of what I thought were their underlying strengths, so the fact that someone has since gone in and gussied up the bunkers and gotten a course in better condition would not be likely to change my rating of it at all.  Members are often very disappointed to hear that, but the truth is, I rated their course higher than it really should have been at the time I saw it.

I don't know that you will find that I had many biases toward particular golf course architects.  Just because I saw a bit more work by one architect than another is at least partly a matter of access and of where I traveled.  Stanley Thompson's best courses are spread a bit further apart than Tillinghast's, for example.  You would probably do better figuring out my favorite architects if you looked at the ORIGINAL version of the Gourmet's Choice, where I didn't restrict myself to only one course per architect.  I think there were four MacKenzie courses in the front of the book at the beginning:  Crystal Downs, Cypress Point, Lahinch, and Royal Melbourne for sure.

But I'm in Rio for a few days, so I don't have the full list of 31 handy.  And you all can speculate about my preferences all you want while I'm gone, since I have other things to do!

Pete Blaisdell

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Re: Analysis of the Confidential Guide
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2012, 05:38:16 AM »
Tom
  To quote Gentle Ben-------'I've got a good feeling about this "

  Good luck, Tom
' Golf courses are like wives and the prom queen doesn't always make for the best wife "

Bill Brightly

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Re: Analysis of the Confidential Guide
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2012, 03:04:04 PM »
Along the lines of what Mac wrote, I bought the book on ebay pretty soon after joining GCA. I remember being struck by how many "big name" courses got so so ratings. It made me think that perhaps their lofty status had more to do with superior maintenance and strong memberships, rather than what was on the ground. That was helpful to me over the years as I got to play some of these courses. I think maintenance played a MUCH larger role in my opinions prior to hanging out on this website.

John Mayhugh

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Re: Analysis of the Confidential Guide
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2012, 03:56:35 PM »
Mark R,
I had been reluctant to pay around $500 for the CG, but recently bought a copy for around $230 in like-new condition. If you would like to borrow it, I'll find a way to get it to you next time I'm in England.

There's a lot in there that I don't necessarily agree with, but the concept of the book and much of the content is fantastic. 


Anthony Gray

Re: Analysis of the Confidential Guide
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2012, 04:03:34 PM »


  The real question is how would he rate his own work. Maybe he has done that but I don't know that.
 

  Anthony


Colin Macqueen

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Re: Analysis of the Confidential Guide
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2012, 04:59:39 PM »
Gentlemen,

Good idea Mark! How to cajole him into agreeing! Perhaps if the golf course architecture game enters an even more parlous state, God forbid!

I do not own, nor have I read, the Confidential Guide but it seems to have garnered a lot of approaval and a devoted following. I would love to see a retrospective issue of this book written once again by Tom Doak. It would be fascinating to read how his views of architecture and certain golf courses had evolved and matured. He was obviously no callow youth though as his book has stood the test of time but a critique of it would be a delight.

Tom D. had you worked for some years on golf courses after your degree and before you took off on your architectural odyssey?


Cheers Colin
"Golf, thou art a gentle sprite, I owe thee much"
The Hielander

Brian_Ewen

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Re: Analysis of the Confidential Guide
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2012, 06:48:50 PM »
Mark
There are copies of The Confidential Guide in the British Library system.

I was easily able to borrow one through my local library in Stonehaven, with about a two week wait.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Analysis of the Confidential Guide
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2012, 07:05:23 PM »

Tom D. had you worked for some years on golf courses after your degree and before you took off on your architectural odyssey?


Colin:

I started seeing golf courses in earnest when I was a sophomore in college.  After my junior year (1981), I worked for Pete Dye on a construction crew for three months, then went back for my senior year of college, and then did my trip to the UK and Ireland courtesy of a postgraduate scholarship from Cornell (1982-83); after which, I went back to work for the Dyes.  So, I had a bit of construction experience before I went to the UK, and obviously a lot more once I got back.  I would guess I'd seen about half the courses in the book by the time I got back from Scotland, and the other half as I continued working in the industry and on my own (1987-).


Anthony:

I rated my first few courses when I wrote the Guide -- the five that were built before it was published.  I think I gave those five courses a 4, a 5, a 6, a 7, and an 8.  [The 8 was High Pointe, which everyone would say was way too high now ... but it was a much more unique product when it was first built.]

I am very grateful that I don't have to rate the rest of my courses now.  If I say I like them, people accuse me of having a big ego; if I say I don't, clients [and some critics] skewer me for trying to be honest.  Just a week ago I got some flak for opining that Apache Stronghold was probably not one of my top three courses ever!  I don't give a crap what most people think of my self-reviews, but I know it's difficult for the clients if I don't rate them very highly.  That's another reason why an update of the book is not soon likely to occur.  But, never say never!

Carl Nichols

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Re: Analysis of the Confidential Guide
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2012, 07:31:22 PM »
Tom:
Maybe Anthony was asking how you'd rate the book? 

Ed Brzezowski

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Re: Analysis of the Confidential Guide
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2012, 07:35:27 PM »
I always wondered how a young man/kid got into all the grilles and dining rooms. Toms gastric ratings should not be overlooked. Lunch at NGLA was a killer choice. Tom if you read this thanks for signing my book last year. Really appreciated your kindness.

ed
We have a pool and a pond, the pond would be good for you.

Jeff_Mingay

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Re: Analysis of the Confidential Guide
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2012, 07:43:52 PM »
High Pointe... for those of you who haven't seen/played it, I'm sorry. It truly was a modern era revelation when it first opened. No joke. I experienced it.

Frankly, much of the popular talk in this discussion group today began with the ideas behind High Pointe. No joke. 
jeffmingay.com

Chris_Hufnagel

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Re: Analysis of the Confidential Guide
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2012, 03:01:04 AM »
I agree on High Pointe - it is the course that really turned me on golf architecture and opened my eyes.  I can't remember now (but wish I could) - I think it was either at the High Pointe clubhouse or Black Forest clubhouse that I bought either my Confidential Guide or Anatomy of a Golf Course...I would have to say which ever the combination of the above it was - that would have to be a fairly significant day in the maturation process for me around golf course design!

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

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Re: Analysis of the Confidential Guide
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2012, 05:51:20 AM »
Mark R,
I had been reluctant to pay around $500 for the CG, but recently bought a copy for around $230 in like-new condition. If you would like to borrow it, I'll find a way to get it to you next time I'm in England.

There's a lot in there that I don't necessarily agree with, but the concept of the book and much of the content is fantastic.  



I don't have a copy either, but I have seen a version of it. The one I saw was very basic in presentation (no offence meant, but there were no graphics, tables, pictures, drawings, etc.). Is this the one that goes for $500, or are there other versions?
« Last Edit: January 31, 2012, 05:54:21 AM by Donal OCeallaigh »

Mac Plumart

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Re: Analysis of the Confidential Guide
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2012, 08:17:05 AM »
Donal...

The version you mentioned has a list price greater than $500.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Jeff_Mingay

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Re: Analysis of the Confidential Guide
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2012, 09:10:46 AM »
I agree on High Pointe - it is the course that really turned me on golf architecture and opened my eyes.  I can't remember now (but wish I could) - I think it was either at the High Pointe clubhouse or Black Forest clubhouse that I bought either my Confidential Guide or Anatomy of a Golf Course...I would have to say which ever the combination of the above it was - that would have to be a fairly significant day in the maturation process for me around golf course design!

Chris,

I remember, years ago now, playing High Pointe and Black Forest on the same trip to northern Michigan.

I absolutely fell in love with High Pointe. As I mention above, so much about the course was a revleation. It had an incredibly simple, natural look and comfortable feel about it, that was remarkably unique back when it debuted. As I recall, High Pointe's a great example of a course that didn't look too intimidating at all but also didn't lack interest and visual appeal either.

Black Forest, not so much. I'd like to play Black Forest again some time, to see if my opinion of place would change this many years later. I mean, there are some really cool holes out there, but overall I remember Black Forest being a major chore. It's a huge layout that makes you feel like you're lost in the woods in many ways. It lacks the intimacy I like at High Pointe (especially on the front nine). And the greens... they're all nasty tough, one hole after another.

High Pointe's a course that makes you want to play again. Black Forest makes you want to take a nap ;D   
jeffmingay.com

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

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Re: Analysis of the Confidential Guide
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2012, 09:28:24 AM »
Donal...

The version you mentioned has a list price greater than $500.

There's was one on Ebay a week ago for something like $536. Now there's one for $700;

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-Confidential-Guide-Golf-Courses-/270731525136?pt=US_Nonfiction_Book&hash=item3f08db3c10

Chris_Hufnagel

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Re: Analysis of the Confidential Guide
« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2012, 10:12:02 AM »
I agree on High Pointe - it is the course that really turned me on golf architecture and opened my eyes.  I can't remember now (but wish I could) - I think it was either at the High Pointe clubhouse or Black Forest clubhouse that I bought either my Confidential Guide or Anatomy of a Golf Course...I would have to say which ever the combination of the above it was - that would have to be a fairly significant day in the maturation process for me around golf course design!

Chris,

I remember, years ago now, playing High Pointe and Black Forest on the same trip to northern Michigan.

I absolutely fell in love with High Pointe. As I mention above, so much about the course was a revleation. It had an incredibly simple, natural look and comfortable feel about it, that was remarkably unique back when it debuted. As I recall, High Pointe's a great example of a course that didn't look too intimidating at all but also didn't lack interest and visual appeal either.

Black Forest, not so much. I'd like to play Black Forest again some time, to see if my opinion of place would change this many years later. I mean, there are some really cool holes out there, but overall I remember Black Forest being a major chore. It's a huge layout that makes you feel like you're lost in the woods in many ways. It lacks the intimacy I like at High Pointe (especially on the front nine). And the greens... they're all nasty tough, one hole after another.

High Pointe's a course that makes you want to play again. Black Forest makes you want to take a nap ;D   


I totally agree with you on the differences between High Pointe and Black Forest - I would probably play 9 of 10 rounds on High Pointe today versus Black Forest - if I had the choice.  But from what I had been used - southeast Michigan public tracks - both opened my eyes to what golf design could be...

I am probably going to get this wrong - and I apologize to Tom Doak in advance - but I think I remember him once saying/writing that the owner of Wilderness Valley wanted the exact opposite to what he had on his first course - he wanted a course that no one would ever say was too easy.  I haven't been there in quite a few years, but would like to go back again and see how time has treated the course and how it has evolved over the years - I just wish we could go back to High Pointe.

Chris.

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re: Analysis of the Confidential Guide
« Reply #20 on: February 01, 2012, 05:31:58 AM »
Thank you to those of you who have offered to lend (or sell) me their copy. I've been e-mailed by a GCAer local to me who can lend me his copy which saves the dangers of postage (or my having to find $600, having just paid my bi-annual income tax bill). 

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Analysis of the Confidential Guide
« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2012, 06:24:28 AM »
Doak quotes Bieber...this is quite the thread.

First task:  get to know the courses. Playing the first five (http://www.renaissancegolf.com/work/our_courses/) is akin to listening to "greetings", "shuffle", "run" and "darkness" all over again, or "boy" , "october" and "war." Those early courses (and albums) give me (and I don't care about the rest of you) the insight that I need to assess the primordial, the original, the innate.

and, that's enough task for one day.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Analysis of the Confidential Guide
« Reply #22 on: February 02, 2012, 06:41:23 AM »
Doak quotes Bieber...this is quite the thread.

First task:  get to know the courses. Playing the first five (http://www.renaissancegolf.com/work/our_courses/) is akin to listening to "greetings", "shuffle", "run" and "darkness" all over again, or "boy" , "october" and "war." Those early courses (and albums) give me (and I don't care about the rest of you) the insight that I need to assess the primordial, the original, the innate.

and, that's enough task for one day.

Ronald:

I didn't understand that post at all.  Did I somehow quote Justin Bieber by coincidence?  I don't think I've ever heard him say anything, and haven't listened to his music, either.

I agree with you that you can learn a lot about any golf course architect by seeing his first few courses.  Some would say that's not fair because there may be constraints on those courses placed by budget or by the clients -- but, of course, that's true for every future project as well.  The real question is whether one lets those constraints undermine the quality of the golf.

Still, I wouldn't judge any architect ONLY by his first five courses.  Most of us will get more technically proficient over time, but some evolve much further than others!

George Pazin

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Re: Analysis of the Confidential Guide
« Reply #23 on: February 02, 2012, 10:10:41 AM »
Still, I wouldn't judge any architect ONLY by his first five courses.  Most of us will get more technically proficient over time, but some evolve much further than others!

Actually, I recall, in the 2 pages on P#2 in the Gourmet section, you said something to the effect that Ross is one of the few who continued to evolve (I think you mentioned Mackenzie as the other, but I'm less sure about that), and that is maybe why he's one of the two best. So, by inference, one needn't play more than the early few, and then maybe one late one to see if the architect in question is a rarity. :)

I have given away 3 copies of the book; I wonder if there are tax implications to such a valuable gift? I should add, only the most recent was when I was aware of the desirability of the book among collectors.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Michael George

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Re: Analysis of the Confidential Guide
« Reply #24 on: February 02, 2012, 10:14:39 AM »
Still, I wouldn't judge any architect ONLY by his first five courses.  Most of us will get more technically proficient over time, but some evolve much further than others!

Actually, I recall, in the 2 pages on P#2 in the Gourmet section, you said something to the effect that Ross is one of the few who continued to evolve (I think you mentioned Mackenzie as the other, but I'm less sure about that), and that is maybe why he's one of the two best. So, by inference, one needn't play more than the early few, and then maybe one late one to see if the architect in question is a rarity. :)

I have given away 3 copies of the book; I wonder if there are tax implications to such a valuable gift? I should add, only the most recent was when I was aware of the desirability of the book among collectors.

While it is insance what the book goes for these days, I am pretty safely under the $13K gift tax exclusion.

"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones