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DMoriarty

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Alistair MacKenzie on the Greatest Courses in the World.
« on: January 29, 2012, 01:12:27 PM »


The above is a blurb from a golf column the Seattle Daily Times, August 22, 1933.  Though I would have been outclassed in more ways than just golf, I'd love to have been in that foursome listening in while two of the most overlooked designers (Chandler Egan and A.V. Macan) discussed perhaps the best remembered. While I don't put much weight in third-hand accounts or in this particular columnist's theorizing about the reasons behind AMacKenzie's tastes, I am always interested in the tastes of the great and not-so-great designers, and what if anything they tell us about that particular designer's approach to golf design.

In MacKenzie's case we learn, at least, that he was fond of The Old Course and two of his own courses. As to the former, is a deep appreciation of The Old Course a common characteristic of all the greats?  Has there ever been truly great designer - modern or past - who did not appreciate The Old Course?  (I can think of one example, maybe, but I'll leave it aside.)  I am not talking about lip service, but rather a true and deep appreciation such as MacKenzie expressed on many occasions.

As for the latter (a great appreciation of one's own work) I suspect that the same could be said of  many of the greats, new and old. No doubt CBM thought his work at NGLA  rivaled the best in the world.  I suspect that if Doak rewrote his Guide, his own courses would be well represented among the courses receiving the highest scores and in his 31 flavors.  And when we are discussing those at the top of the design game, one could probably view these guys as arrogant, but when we get down to the courses can we really argue with their high opinion of their own work?  Is this less than modest attitude toward one's own work a necessary personality trait of the successful designer?  And what about the rest of them?   What about the designers who are perhaps less accomplished than a Doak, a CBM, or a MacKenzie?  Did/do such designers view their own work as on par with that of the very best anywhere?
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re: Alistair MacKenzie on the Greatest Courses in the World.
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2012, 01:39:35 PM »
Thanks for sharing this with us. I think a lot of those golden age architects were full of confidence (self-confidence). I wonder if any of them lost potential jobs because their clients didn't like their arrogance?

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Alistair MacKenzie on the Greatest Courses in the World.
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2012, 02:09:07 PM »
David, great point. Given the mysterious nature of TOC's architecture it's interesting to correlate how much time designer X spent at TOC to the extent his designs paid homage to TOC.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Alistair MacKenzie on the Greatest Courses in the World.
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2012, 02:12:41 PM »
Objectivity is hard to come by, especially when it involves your peers and competitors, directly or indirectly.


Stewart Naugler

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Re: Alistair MacKenzie on the Greatest Courses in the World.
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2012, 02:19:07 PM »
Regardless, I think it's pretty hard to argue with the doctor's top 3.


Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re: Alistair MacKenzie on the Greatest Courses in the World.
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2012, 02:36:31 PM »
There are certainly many that belong in this discussion. However the Good Doctor listed 2 of his and 3 of the best anywhere. The more great golf courses I am exposed too, the more I can see in the club. It makes one think twice before pulling the trigger on a list.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Alistair MacKenzie on the Greatest Courses in the World.
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2012, 02:48:13 PM »
Regardless, I think it's pretty hard to argue with the doctor's top 3.

Actually, it's quite easy to argue his top 3.

First you have to understand and put into context, the date the statement was made.

The omission of NGLA and the insertion of CPC is easy to argue.

Both are wonderful golf courses, but many feel that NGLA is superior to CPC.




Stewart Naugler

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Re: Alistair MacKenzie on the Greatest Courses in the World.
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2012, 03:02:01 PM »
If I could choose 3 courses to play again before I died, they would be Cypress, RM, and the Old Course. I personally wouldn't trade any of those for NGLA. Now would NGLA be #4 or #5? Yes. 

DMoriarty

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Re: Alistair MacKenzie on the Greatest Courses in the World.
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2012, 03:35:33 PM »
Patrick,

While one could argue with MacKenzie's short list, but it certainly seems within the realm of reasonableness. I unfortunately haven't played Royal Melbourne, but as between CPC and NGLA I've no idea how anyone could ever "objectively" choose a better.  I could make arguments for either and would gladly play either any or every day, perhaps to the exclusion of all others I've played.  

For what it is worth, MacKenzie was a fan of NGLA. From Spirit of St. Andrews . . .

North America is rapidly becoming a greater golf center than even the home of golf, Scotland.  The average American golf course is vastly superior to the average Scottish golf course, but I still think the best courses in Scotland, such as the Old Course at St. Andrews, are superior to any in the World.   In the East, the National and Pine Valley are outstanding, and the excellence of many other courses may be traced to their shining example.   My personal preference is for the National.   Although not so spectacular as Pine Valley, it has a greater resemblance to real links land than any course in the East.

His quote raises another possible direction from which to approach the relationship between a designer's tastes in courses and his approach to design.  While he might have preferred his own masterpieces over both, MacKenzie was not only a fan of NGLA, he preferred it over Pine Valley because to him NGLA more closely resembled the real thing.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2012, 03:37:17 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Jim Nugent

Re: Alistair MacKenzie on the Greatest Courses in the World.
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2012, 03:39:47 PM »
Has there ever been truly great designer - modern or past - who did not appreciate The Old Course?  


Tillie did not think TOC was a championship course.  He thought that was one reason U.S. golfers were out-playing British golfers in major championships then.  Courses like TOC were too easy.  U.S. courses were more challenging.  

DMoriarty

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Re: Alistair MacKenzie on the Greatest Courses in the World.
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2012, 03:45:20 PM »
Jim,  Could you perhaps elaborate on when Tillie said this and the context, and perhaps provide what exactly he said? Tillie said a lot over the years and I am not sure it was always consistent, and some of it was rather self-serving, so I am curious as to what to make of your summary.  Thanks.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Alistair MacKenzie on the Greatest Courses in the World.
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2012, 03:56:43 PM »
David,

One has to wonder what courses CBM, Ross, Flynn AND AWT Would name as their top 3.

Why do I get the feeling that RM & CPC would not be amongst them ?

Adam Lawrence

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Re: Alistair MacKenzie on the Greatest Courses in the World.
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2012, 04:06:02 PM »
I can't imagine that any of those four ever saw Royal Melbourne. So it would be hard for them to name it as among the three best....
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

David Kelly

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Re: Alistair MacKenzie on the Greatest Courses in the World.
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2012, 04:11:55 PM »
I think Tillie made those comments about TOC in the 1930s but I think his last trip to St. Andrews was in 1901.
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Ed Oden

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Re: Alistair MacKenzie on the Greatest Courses in the World.
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2012, 09:46:02 PM »
I thought Royal Melbourne was largely constructed after MacKenzie left Australia and that he never returned to see the finished product.  If so, then it strikes me as odd that he would be confident enough to declare it as one of the three best in the world.  While I have no reason to believe that Royal Melbourne isn't worthy of such a claim, does anyone else find it surprising that MacKenzie would do so without ever actually seeing the course in its completed form?

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Alistair MacKenzie on the Greatest Courses in the World.
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2012, 09:56:08 PM »
I thought Royal Melbourne was largely constructed after MacKenzie left Australia and that he never returned to see the finished product.  If so, then it strikes me as odd that he would be confident enough to declare it as one of the three best in the world.  While I have no reason to believe that Royal Melbourne isn't worthy of such a claim, does anyone else find it surprising that MacKenzie would do so without ever actually seeing the course in its completed form?

Ed,

If your information is correct, then it would seem that the quote is seriously flawed or fabricated.


Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re: Alistair MacKenzie on the Greatest Courses in the World.
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2012, 11:30:05 PM »
I must admit I thought that was a bit much as well. It takes a special kind of ego to suggest a course he never saw completed as one of the three best. However when one can say if it is true, then thats not bragging. It is a nice article but lets not go all Merion over this.

DMoriarty

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Re: Alistair MacKenzie on the Greatest Courses in the World.
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2012, 11:33:52 PM »
Ed,  I also wondered about that as well, along with the columnist's claim that MacKenzie was "alone in his production" of the course. i am not an expert on the origins of the course but I don't' think that is accurate.

As I said, the story is third hand, so I don't know how much credence we should give it. Maybe something got lost in the process, or perhaps the course fit so well and flowed so naturally that MacKenzie had no doubt as to its quality even if he didn't' see it finished.  
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Jim Nugent

Re: Alistair MacKenzie on the Greatest Courses in the World.
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2012, 12:52:09 AM »
Jim,  Could you perhaps elaborate on when Tillie said this and the context, and perhaps provide what exactly he said? Tillie said a lot over the years and I am not sure it was always consistent, and some of it was rather self-serving, so I am curious as to what to make of your summary.  Thanks.

Phil Young reproduced this passage in a thread on GCA years ago.  He says Tillie wrote it in 1934, during the Walker Cup, as the U.S. team was (again) demolishing Britain's.  This was Tillie's explanation for why U.S. players were dominating British...

"Now this query is founded on fact, records of the past decade. Numerous as answering opinions have been, we, too, have our thoughts. We believe that more outstanding players are being developed here in the United States because generally throughout the nation our golfers play over more testing courses than do they in Great Britain. Undoubtedly there are some truly great constructive minds across the water, designing some really fine golf holes and certainly there are great British courses—but too few. But do the golfers of Britain admit this or concede it? A few of them do; most will not.

It seems to us that our cousins are disinclined and reluctant to emerge from tradition, which is a great thing, but newer ideas obviously develop greater golfers. We know that there are many who will listen to no word of criticism of the Old Course at St. Andrews. Indeed, no course in the world is so rich in tradition, but we assert (and we know the old course well) that as a collection of holes it has too many weaknesses to be regarded as truly championship. This seems almost like speaking disrespectfully about one's grandparent. Frankly, we know of no place on earth where we would rather spend a golf holiday, and harking back forty years we appreciated its greatness as we followed a "guttie" ball around a magnificent course of that period. But conditions have changed in forty years. Old St. Andrews has not. We can pick out fifty better championship tests in our own country. So it seems to be throughout the entire kingdom. The reconstruction of
holes, famous of old, but quite without merit in these days, is done grudgingly and frequently in the face of stout opposition. Over here we have no, battle to fight with traditions. When we recognize a bad or unworthy hole we get rid of it quickly and replace it with one that develops skill,—and this practice is getting more general every day.

Certainly the British have every right to play their golf as they see fit. It is not ours to criticize, and our answer to the question of why their golfers seem a bit backward in keeping pace with the times is intended alone for our own people, who are curious about it all, and ask for our opinion."

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,22434.10/wap2.html

David Kelly

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Re: Alistair MacKenzie on the Greatest Courses in the World.
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2012, 02:21:52 AM »
Regardless of whether Mackenzie actually said what Egan told Dreher he said, after almost 80 years and thousands of golf courses having been built a person could do a lot worse than pick CPC, RM and TOC as the three greatest courses in the world.
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Pete Blaisdell

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Re: Alistair MacKenzie on the Greatest Courses in the World.
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2012, 04:28:48 AM »
I think David has put the subject matter into its proper context.

Personally . if I had one course to play before my expiration date, it would be Cypress. Played it twice and the day does not pass that I don't think of Cypress.

But, one has to agree with Pat that the National is an abso;ute masterpiece and must be included in the conversation.

I also pray that every member of GCA gets the opportunity to experience Myopia Hunt in the morning and Essex in the afternoon, go find a great seafood dinner , get some sleep and cap it off with 36 the next day at Salem. Does not get any better than that, gentlemen.
' Golf courses are like wives and the prom queen doesn't always make for the best wife "

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Alistair MacKenzie on the Greatest Courses in the World.
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2012, 04:29:56 AM »
I thought Royal Melbourne was largely constructed after MacKenzie left Australia and that he never returned to see the finished product.  If so, then it strikes me as odd that he would be confident enough to declare it as one of the three best in the world.  While I have no reason to believe that Royal Melbourne isn't worthy of such a claim, does anyone else find it surprising that MacKenzie would do so without ever actually seeing the course in its completed form?

I had the same question.  Then again, if you look back at the quote, MacKenzie does not even name Royal Melbourne; we all just assumed that's where he meant.  Perhaps he meant Royal Adelaide or New South Wales, instead ... though he never saw them finished, either.  Or maybe he just thought one or the other of those courses must have turned out really great, and no one would be able to call him on it, anyway.  :)

To David's original question, it takes a special ego to be a golf course architect, and though I know a few exceptions to the rule, they're definitely exceptions.  I've never got to the point where I would put one of my own courses into the world's top 3, but, there are a lot more great courses to compete with now than there were in MacKenzie's day.

Pete Blaisdell

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Re: Alistair MacKenzie on the Greatest Courses in the World.
« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2012, 04:50:09 AM »
Tom
 A proper routing is the life blood of a course. In your experience , have you struggled with a routing and worked hard to satisfy yourself and then have the owner/owners/committee tweak it in a negative way? How do you handle that ? There must be great anticipation on your part when starting a project. Is it a big let down when your plan is altered? It must be discouraging.
' Golf courses are like wives and the prom queen doesn't always make for the best wife "

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Alistair MacKenzie on the Greatest Courses in the World.
« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2012, 04:53:16 AM »
Tom
 A proper routing is the life blood of a course. In your experience , have you struggled with a routing and worked hard to satisfy yourself and then have the owner/owners/committee tweak it in a negative way? How do you handle that ? There must be great anticipation on your part when starting a project. Is it a big let down when your plan is altered? It must be discouraging.

Pete:

There have been times I've wrestled with my clients over the placement of a particular hole, but not very often ... that's the advantage of not working on a lot of housing-development courses.  There have been a couple of other times where we couldn't put a hole where we wanted, for permitting reasons.  But I don't think I've ever had a routing "altered" once I'm happy with it.  Of course, it helps when the guys on the bulldozers get their paychecks directly from you.

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: Alistair MacKenzie on the Greatest Courses in the World.
« Reply #24 on: January 30, 2012, 10:25:18 AM »
Tom
 A proper routing is the life blood of a course. In your experience , have you struggled with a routing and worked hard to satisfy yourself and then have the owner/owners/committee tweak it in a negative way? How do you handle that ? There must be great anticipation on your part when starting a project. Is it a big let down when your plan is altered? It must be discouraging.

Pete:

There have been times I've wrestled with my clients over the placement of a particular hole, but not very often ... that's the advantage of not working on a lot of housing-development courses.  There have been a couple of other times where we couldn't put a hole where we wanted, for permitting reasons.  But I don't think I've ever had a routing "altered" once I'm happy with it.  Of course, it helps when the guys on the bulldozers get their paychecks directly from you.

The paychecks is funny... and true.
Pete look at the Dismal River example.
Chris told Tom to stay on one side of the road, he didn't even want him to look over the road.
Now more than 1/2 the course is on the side Chris didn't want and they both love the routing.

A client would have a very hard time debating the merits of relocating a hole with Tom.
They would have no idea until it is built, unlike Tom who could talk for weeks as to why it should be there.

Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.