[Mark Johnson]

In Scotland, it is pretty common...

well,  there are only 3 set of tees on most scottish courses I've seen. Stepping on the back tee is a privilege and only the starter can give it to you

Thanks for the scottish perspective Philippe.    How do the starter usually make the determination, based on handicap, reputation?   If a scratch golfer showed up at a top scottish course for the first time, would he be allowed to play the back tee?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

What that is bs. I will not say it has never happened, but it would be few and far between, especially on a course that gets a good bit of visitor play. The back are the members or Championship tees in Scotland. I have never seen a starter make that call to a group of visitors. I have played the members tees many times as the guest of a member and then have the option of going back to the Championship tee with my members permission. The starter merely tells one where the visitors are.

[Adrian_Stiff]

In the UK, many courses need to protect their back tees and their use is restricted to competitions and not casual visitor play, many dont even have irrigation and are 8 yards by 8 yards, they wont tolerate too much use. Newer courses and top clubs have larger tees and irrigation and understand that some visitors like to play ther course nearer medal length, I suspect very few will let you on the very back ones unless you are all very good players, even then maybe not, the rule at my club is you can play from the yellows (tees of the day) or the whites at your choice at any time, the very back tees we dont mind players on them if its quiet but we dont let those players use them at the short holes, so if golfers ask its yes you can but use the whites on the par 3s., I have never heard it not obeyed. At TOC can you chose your tee? I think its just a case of respecting the individual clubs rules, each will have a good reason if you cant use their back tees. No one in the UK really mixes and matches the tees in normal play, equally we only really have two sets of tees in most cases.

[William_G]

I agree with Tiger, that it is BS in GB and rarely is a visitor allowed anywhere but the forward tees regardless of ability level and course length...

For many this practice takes the experience of the course architrecture out of play, which is a bummer especially when you've traveled thousand's of miles for the experience...

[Adrian_Stiff]

I understand this can be a problem Brian. The problem is with 45,000 rounds and a Scottish climate everyone cant play the back tees, TOC shows a problem in as much with the double greens, you need to be walking slightly forward of play for safety and speed reasons for general play. Its a problem that I am not sure can be greatly corrected at some holes, 2, 3, 6, 7 are much shorter and then in the run of 9, 10 and 12 yes its all a bit chip n putt. There is no doubt that some people travelling 3000 miles do expect to play the real McCoy. A modern course tends to factor this.

[Sean_A]

I think there is middle ground with TOC.  On some holes the daily tees could stand to be pushed back - the 16th being one of them.  The front nine could also do with some tees being pushed back to alleviate the driver/wedge syndrome on so many holes on a supposedly championship course.  TOC is the only Open rota course where this problem exists for a significant percentage of vistors.  I had six driver/wedge holes going out in October.  By anyone's count that is far too many.  Luckily, the greens are very interesting and there is history.  Otherwise, I think a lot of people wouldn't ever go back. 

In my experience, if one asks permission from the secretary there is a decent chance medal tee play will be granted, but this usually must be planned in advance.  Very few clubs have starters - it tends to be the new clubs and in these instances I would think the starter has a lot of power.  Many clubs allow members to play from the medal tees (and their guests obviously), but the culture for most older clubs is to play daily tees.   

Ciao

[Mark Chaplin]

What isn't BS is most club's have relatively small tees and not many of them. What could be reasonable on iconic holes is a tee mat to enable players to have the shot without the damage and wear. I'm thinking 1 Machrihanish and 9 Turnberry

[Scott Stearns]

Thinking  about it further, the answer for me depends on what is on offer:

In a competition, you are trying to score as well as you can.  Play it as it is set up.

If you are playing as a guest or on a Saturday am at a pvt club, you do what your fellow competitors do.--Promote a good time for all, including those behind you.

Where i get upset is when i get this treatment at a resort that is billing the round as "a life experience"---usually in an effort to justify exorbitant green fees. 

If iam paying $500, i dont want a guy in plus fours and an embossed divot tool.  I certainly dont want to be told to play from a set of tees that forces me to either hit 4 iron or hit over all the trouble.   

[rjsimper]

I have no issues with the suggestion of which tees to play or guidelines listed on the card.

Last time I played Tobacco Road, the starter gave me a very long stink eye when I told him I'd be walking back to the tips. For those of you who have played it, you know the starter hangs out at the 3rd set from the back and you have to go up and meet him, and then walk back to the tips.

Questions (and thoughts in my head)
"Are you sure you want to play from back there?"  (yes I am)
"Well, the slope is 150" (slope is not a measure of difficulty)

Never once asked me my handicap. Never asked if I'd played there before, anything.

Nevermind the fact that the course is 6600 yards from the tips and probably plays even shorter than that.


Simply saying "We recommend the very back or second from the back tees to anyone who is between a 0 and 5 handicap" would have been sufficient and inoffensive.

[Greg Tallman]

My rule is: Offer the siggestion ONLY IF ASKED. There is not good way of telling someone A) You are not good enough to play from those tees or 2) We're sorry but you cannot play from the tees that your game would suggest you should.

Simple - play in this amount of time and you can cartwheel down the fairway for all I care.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Mark I might add I almost always walk over to the back tee on 9 at Turnberry to look at the hole from there. I have played it from there a few times when the course was fairly empty and no body would see me. That is well into a course I know well. You know the drill and needs of most courses as well as anybody.

[Carl Nichols]

1.  Don't think courses should require you to play a specific set of tees.  It's an indirect and ineffective way to deal with pace of play.  I do wish courses did more to directly and effectively speed up play.  There are few things I dislike more than playing a five-hour round -- courses should be willing to take draconian steps to prevent that from happening.  Moving up tees just isn't nearly enough.

2.  If, however, I'm told that I have to use a particular set of tees for whatever reason, I'm going to abide by the rules.  That's true, probably especially true, with respect to tees without any tee markers.  I suppose there are exceptions, but just because I feel like it isn't one of them.

[Jason Connor]

I'm totally on board with this EXCEPT that the requirement should be made known at the front desk the the golfers pay, not on the first tee.  That way they know what they're paying for.

If they insist upon playing longer tees, let it be know that marshalls reserve the right to move them into place or remove them from the course without warning.

[Mark Chaplin]

Here we are arguing about the "right" to use the tips yet advocating faster play and also on another post supporting the Move Up campaign.

At Deal the tips are by my estimation 700yds of extra walking compared to the yellow boxes and around (from experience) 15 minutes slower, just enough to hold everyone else up.

[Scott Warren]

Carl,

Don't think courses should require you to play a specific set of tees.  It's an indirect and ineffective way to deal with pace of play.

I must say I never heard pace of play named as a reason for this in the UK, it's more to do with preserving the championship tees for championships.

As for the reduced length reducing a course's interest, I'm thinking through my favourite courses and struggling to think of one that is/would be diminished by playing 20-30yds forward.

One upside of almost all club golfers in Australia playing 95% or more of their golf in club competitions is that there's never the need for tees to be chosen, the comp is from a particular set of tees, so that's where everyone plays.

[Sean_A]

Scott

Strangely enough, I rarely ever feel "cheated" from the forward tees, however, twice this winter I felt the tees were too far forward on certain holes.  More effort should have been done to create a better balance on the day.  In general, I don't like the idea of a wholesale moving up of the tees in winter.  I think the overall integrity of length should be kept in play throughput the year.  This still leaves opportunities to rest tees (by using other tees such as ladies, seniors and medal) and provide a proper challenge as is meant by the length of the "normal" course.  Its important to experience the "same" course throughout the year and see how it changes the difficulty.  I don't want an automatic shortening of the course in deference to winter.

Ciao   

[Adrian_Stiff]

Sean - I am assuming your referring to TOC again and I was thinking about the problem of the forward tees there. I think the back nine just stands up more in terms of length, 13, 14, 15, 17 are all quite long holes even from the tees of the day, infact at 17 theres not much gain from the front in terms of yardage, 16 is just a 200 yard carry from the old back tee (now tee of the day) at 16 so I guess thats set up to be in play, of course with links golf and wind you can +/- 50 yards perhaps and set up is never going to be perfect. On the front nine things are not so easy, there is not the same width to the boundary, back nine greens are more inward from the boundary, so from a safety angle the next tee needs to be more forward, holes 2,3,4,5,6 and 7 all fall into this slight problem, there is not the room for these holes to play significantly longer for a long period of time, the tees that are there that extend to the championship or even medal lengths are very small. I dont think going further right and moving the track is a viable option as I think it penetrates too far into the safety margins of the new course. Would be interesting if other architects could find a solution, I think from the regular tees the 3rd is just 315 yards 4th is 370 5th probably is 500 6th is 320, 7th 320, factor in 9, 10 and 12 and theres no doubt its a shortie.
Also, you need to think that most clubs conserve their course in order for it to be better in the Summer, I know you dont agree with that but certainly from a commercial and statistical point of view, half the golfers are only Summer players, and the 7 month summer accounts for 85%+ of the buisness and number of rounds, factor in that damage by play is substantially magnified by a winter round and repairing in times of nil to minimal grwth, there lies the reason many clubs wont allow you on their tees in the winter. Mats or purpose built tees are commonplace and their positioning is seldom at full length and normally forward which equals short. So in part the reason is course maintenance in the UK.

[Sean_A]

Adrian

Its pretty easy to shift tees in winter to far forward and well back - such as patriotic tees (#1 red tee, #2 white tee & #3 blue tee, only the tees are the same colour in winter).  There is no need to have all tees, forward all the time during the winter.  Its just a matter of choosing the right holes to shift the tees for and doing it at the right times.  Its never an all or nothing deal just because of winter. 

You are right that TOC has space issues for length on the front nine, but I don't think tees further back on some of those holes is anymore dangerous than daily tees.  Despite the reputation, TOC is fairly tight and golfers need to be aware of whats going on. 

#2 can be further back, there is the burn to protect the tee.

#3 can go further back and right.

#4 is fine.

#5 is fine.

#6 can't really go back because of folks going at #5 green in two.

#7 is fine.

#8 is fine.

#9 can go back as far you like, but length isn't the primary issue with this hole.

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

Sean - The wear on tees in the winter in the UK is quite dramatic, you just cant do it unless you get almost zero play or your tees are huge.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I agree with Greg...suggest where they should play, but if they can maintain the pace of play...play where you like.
I hate it when I go home to play and some assistant pro tells me I have to play from the front teess....I have flown 3000 miles to play a golf course, and play from tees that I would have when I was a kid.

I sort of understand Adrian's comment about protecting tee boxes...but when hiting drivers, how much damage can really be done by the few people that would want to play from the back tees.
Ar Birkdale for instance 99% of players wouldnt want to make the treck to those back tees anyway...If a player is of sufficeint skill level let him endure the whole golf course...The Brits are obsessed with this.
Growing up I spent more times than I want to admit in secretaties offices for wanting to challenge myself and play the back tees....

[Mark Johnson]

The problem in the US is that we have more tee boxes than we know what to do with and the inexperienced golfer doesn't really understand the difference.

Here is a scorecard from one course who has such a policy.   Does this change anyone's answer?

http://www.purgatorygolf.com/images/SC2003inside.gif

[Adrian_Stiff]

I agree with Greg...suggest where they should play, but if they can maintain the pace of play...play where you like.
I hate it when I go home to play and some assistant pro tells me I have to play from the front teess....I have flown 3000 miles to play a golf course, and play from tees that I would have when I was a kid.

I sort of understand Adrian's comment about protecting tee boxes...but when hiting drivers, how much damage can really be done by the few people that would want to play from the back tees.
Ar Birkdale for instance 99% of players wouldnt want to make the treck to those back tees anyway...If a player is of sufficeint skill level let him endure the whole golf course...The Brits are obsessed with this.
Growing up I spent more times than I want to admit in secretaties offices for wanting to challenge myself and play the back tees....

Michael if its just a few people playing off a back tee its obviously not a problem. The problem is merely the numbers game and its a game in the UK that gets amplified in the winter when the grass is not growing, an agronomist years ago reckoned 1 round of Winter Golf was equal to 20 rounds of Summer Golf when you take into account the recovery, wear and compaction problems. You can divot a tee and it recovers in 21 days in the summer but recovery is near zero in the winter and theres no point really in even filling the divot until the spring. Modern golf courses suffer much less because the architects have designed bigger tees to accomodate all year round play, but its the old uns that were designed for fewer rounds and where there was not this huge difference today in the length some hit the ball which renders some golf courses a bit redundant.

[Carl Nichols]

Carl,

Don't think courses should require you to play a specific set of tees.  It's an indirect and ineffective way to deal with pace of play.

I must say I never heard pace of play named as a reason for this in the UK, it's more to do with preserving the championship tees for championships.

As for the reduced length reducing a course's interest, I'm thinking through my favourite courses and struggling to think of one that is/would be diminished by playing 20-30yds forward.

One upside of almost all club golfers in Australia playing 95% or more of their golf in club competitions is that there's never the need for tees to be chosen, the comp is from a particular set of tees, so that's where everyone plays.

Scott:
I'm pretty sure that here in the U.S., the primary reason that a starter will ask/tell you to play a different set of tees is out of concern for pace of play.  That's certainly true at the public/resort courses at which I've experienced this (and, come to think of it, I've never had someone make this kind of comment at a private club).  You guys in the UK are fortunate to not have our pace of play issues......

[Dan Grossman]

Generally speaking, I don't like to have the tees dictated to me.  I am also not shy at moving up to the next tee up if I think I am out of my depth.  Same thing if the forward tees are too far forward.  My issue with making it about handicap is that doesn't necessarily indicate ability to hit the ball off the tee. 

In my trips to Scotland, I have been fortunate enough to play a number of the championship tees.  We were able to do this by simply asking nicely!  The biggest disappointment was playing at Birkdale where we were not able to play back, it was very hard and fast and the course played ridiculously short.  I ended up hitting 2-iron off the tee all day as a result.  Not the best way to enjoy the course or the architecture.

[Gary Slatter]

I think we need to obey Starters and Marshalls, provided they are properly trained.  We need to respect the rules of courses, even if we are members.  And tees without markers, are out of play, possibly for a reason.

Playing the Old and New Course you need permission to play the Medal  Tees, this is granted if you are a low handicapper or professional, and they check your progress after 3/6 holes.  Often it's up to the caddie to say "he's OK, good player", or a simple frown which the marshall takes as "should be moved up".

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