[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick,

I was going to mention Douglaston as well!

It's the remnants of the former North Hill? CC, by Willie Tucker, and the only downside is they lost some property over time leading to a course maxing out at about 5,800 yards.

Marine Park, built by RTJ Sr. on mostly sand, is OK, but doesn't have the fun quirkiness of the others, I'd agree.

[GeoffreyC]

John

Sorry for not reading carefully enough.  I though it was a general put down and combined with the bashing statement (I don't like generalizing about "people" bashing good courses)caused me to post.  

I try to be fair with all courses and avoid bashing anything without backing it up with specifics (especially the Yale "restoration"). Fiddlers Elbow is routed terribly and it is way overshaped but there are some really good holes and green complexes and some good golf to be played there.

[John_Conley]

Is that the uphill, dogleg right on the back at Fiddler's?    You're too good!

Routing is clumsy, but only at the start.  I think we agree.  Many I know take a golf snob's view of all courses and criticize often.  I've done it myself when talking about places like Champions Gate.  

In order for me to know what to make of any comment, I need to know what relevant scale we're employing.

Try ranking the courses in your area by decile and you get a completely different perspective than if you use a Doak-scale number or measurement against Top 100 lists.  7th decile is just slightly below average.  You need to place 30% of all courses below THAT.  

From descriptions, Dyker may be 7th or 8th decile?  That was my point.  See other threads trashing Pelican Hill.  Haven't played it, but I'm sure it would rank at worst 3rd decile of all courses - which implies better than average.

[THuckaby2]

Try ranking the courses in your area by decile and you get a completely different perspective than if you use a Doak-scale number or measurement against Top 100 lists.  7th decile is just slightly below average.  You need to place 30% of all courses below THAT.  

From descriptions, Dyker may be 7th or 8th decile?  That was my point.  See other threads trashing Pelican Hill.  Haven't played it, but I'm sure it would rank at worst 3rd decile of all courses - which implies better than average.

JC - for the non-math majors and non-statisticians here, please define "decile".  I think I know what you're getting at but the math is confusing me... your talking groups of 10 places, right?  Ie 1-10 would be "first decile", 11-20 "second" and so on, all in terms of percentage of the group?

That being the case, Pelican Hill is indeed likely in the 3rd or 4th decile of courses in California... but obviously that depends on how you look at things and I doubt Tommy would put it there no matter what!

Sorry for the intrusion.

TH

[John_Conley]

Hucks...

Congratulations on that national championship!

You are correct.  A decile is dividing into equal tenths.  (Quartile is 1/4s, quintile is 1/5s).  By definition, the 5th and 6th decile are average.  Depending on how normal the distribution is, 4th and 7th deciles can probably be described as average as well.

Why is it helpful to go through the exercise of ranking the courses in an are you are familiar with by decile?  Because you HAVE to say 10% are the worst 10% and you have to say that 10% are the best.  Try it.  You'll have trouble getting it down.  Took me a little over 90 minutes to do Orlando's 100 courses that I'm familiar with.

Saying that something is in the 8th decile makes it sound like it is really bad.  But if you like golf, you'd still enjoy playing it.

Someone on this board would not back down from his statement that Fiddler's Elbow is "average".  I asked if he meant average out of what he'd play, reasoning that most of us skew our golf to the average and above courses and could lose touch with what a truly dreadful course really is (9th or 10th decile).  Because he stuck to saying that Fiddler's - a very good course in the overall scheme of thinks but deficient in some areas necessary to be ranked - is average, I knew he didn't seek out and evaluate junk versus junk.  Bonds are ranked AAA, AA, A, BBB, and junk.  But if you look closer, you'd see that junk has many different levels!  (BB, B, CCC, CC, C, etc...)

I like using a Doak reading for the truly elite.  6-10 are courses that are real good.  With over 10,000 courses in Amerca, the Top 100 lists contain less than 1% of the population.  Does it make sense to use that as the scale for most courses?  NO.

Those who detest Pelican Hill, which I again remind you I have not seen, are comparing it to the 1%ers.  Slide the scale down and look at it compared to average and I GUARANTEE it CANNOT fall below 6th quintile.  40% of all courses HAVE TO BE worse than it.  As you said, 3rd decile - 71st to 80th percentile for you standardized testers - is likely.  Even its critics couldn't put it much below that.

I think I'll start another thread on deciles.  It is a much more meaningful and inclusive way to look at golf courses that lay outside of what the magazine rankings pick up.

Thought:  For those who live in a small midwestern town with only one 9-hole option, a day at Pelican Hill signals the culmination of a fantasy.

[THuckaby2]

JC - muchas gracias, amigo.  That is a perfect explanation and it does indeed make sense to me.  You are 100% correct re Pelican Hill, and your point re the midwestern with one 9-hole option is a great one.  Very well said.

Ranking things around me into deciles is kinda strangely what I do anyway, but not that precisely... that is, every course around me is ranked in my mind relative to its neighbors.  Here in NorCal we have some pretty high class neighbors, thus some fine courses might get short shrift.  But this has a place wherever you go....

Very good thoughts - thanks again.

And re my touting of the national championship by our female footballers, well... when you have as awful a men's basketball team as we do this year, you look for other options!

TH

[Patrick Hitt]

John,
When I lived in Brooklyn I did not have access to 10 courses so I guess I'll have to go with the quintile for my nyc ratings of courses available by public transport.
Top 5th Bethpage State Park (#2/3 to LIRR, 15 min walk)
2nd 5th Mountauk Downs (2/3 to LIRR + 20 min walk)
3rd 5th Dyker Park (N or is it R? to Bay Ridge)
4th 5th Pelham Bay / Split Rock (2/3 to 4 to MetroNorth - long walk past Pelham CC to course)
Final Fifth The original muni - Van Cortland - where I was tempted to fire a low stinger at kids stealing my wayward approach on a few occasions.
There are probably a few that I missed out on like the Queens courses that I couldn't figure out how to get to on the bus or Staten Island courses that would have involved a ferry ride. Montauk was a hike but very easy to do if I had all day. It really only took a little longer than a weekend round on the Black. New Jersey public golf was a great mystery.

[Matt_Ward]

I just had to add that I don't want to canonize golf in NYC. It's more of a hardship than a joy. The layouts require some "inventive" thinking on "what they could be."

And, I agree there is a tendency for people to highlight these courses because they are so low on the totem pole of consideration / expectation.

Golf in NYC is functional barely -- no more and no less. There are some unique elements worthy of consideration, but it is highly unlikely any of these layouts will morph into what they can be.

I enjoy Dyker Beach and a few others already mentioned -- but let's be clear. I'm not running there to get in a round when other clear public options are available.

Partrick -- I hope you're mystery on Jersey public golf has since been solved. Believe me there is a country on this side of the Hudson River.

[ChipOat]

To: NAF

Re: Most rounds in USA

Dyker Beach may get more rounds than any other course in the continental USA.  The hands-down winner in the whole entire USA is Ala Wai golf course in Honolulu.

[astavrides]

Mabye you guys should think about adding Douglaston to the winter rotation. A little better drainage, good rolling terrain, and a ton of architectual character. I didn't get to play there or Split Rock as much as Dyker, Van Cortland, or even Bethpage because there is no easy train ride. Nothing like bumping people in bay ridge with the carry bag.
By the way the biggest dissapointment in the 5 boroughs has to be Marine Park. Glass in the rough and a snoozer layout on a waterfront property.

No kidding about Marine Park.  Can't believe that it has Trent Jones, Sr.'s name attached to it.  Played there today since it was the closest course (1 hr. 10 min) to me not covered in snow--with another storm on the way tonight.  The front nine is just a flat field with 9 flagsticks and some ordinary greenside bunkering.  At least the back nine feels like an (unkempt) golf course, with some trees here and there and some fairway bunkers and doglegs.   The greens did present some challenges and were in decent shape.  But it was long enough and fair enough and it was golf and that was plenty good enough for me today.

[Mike Cirba]

Dyker rocks!

[astavrides]

Dyker rocks!

unfortunately, it wasn't open yesterday.

Siliver Lake is the only other nyc muni i've played.  It was not without its charms.  How does it compare to Dyker, Van Cortlandt, Split Rock, and the Queens munis?

[Mike Cirba]

Wow, Alex...good question.   I'm going to have to dig deep in the fading memory banks as it's been about 15 years since I played all the NYC munis, less Kissena Park and Mosholu.   Also, apparently some courses have had recent renovations done by Steven Kay and I'm not sure how those turned out.

Perhaps I should grade them as I played them back then on a Doak Scale put on Hyper_Curve, as the best one's are perhaps a 4 on the real scale so I need more gradients then that 

The NYC Muni Doak Scale on Hyper_Curve Ratings as as follows:  (note:  it's based on architecture only, as conditions at all of them vary widely due to a number of factors)

Bronx:

Pelham - 7
Split Rock - 9
Van Cortlandt - 3 (probably the worst course architecturally in NYC but you have to play for the history)

Brooklyn:

Dyker Beach - 8
Marine Park - 4

Queens:

Clearview - 5
Douglaston - 5 (note - too much of this course acreage was lost but still a handful of really good original holes)
Forest Park - 6 (A real surprise as I'd never heard anyone mention it)

Staten Island:

LaTourette - 8
South Shore - 6
Silver Lake - 5

I'm not sure if/how that helps at all, but that's how I recall them.

[Chris_Blakely]

Mabye you guys should think about adding Douglaston to the winter rotation. A little better drainage, good rolling terrain, and a ton of architectual character. I didn't get to play there or Split Rock as much as Dyker, Van Cortland, or even Bethpage because there is no easy train ride. Nothing like bumping people in bay ridge with the carry bag.
By the way the biggest dissapointment in the 5 boroughs has to be Marine Park. Glass in the rough and a snoozer layout on a waterfront property.

No kidding about Marine Park.  Can't believe that it has Trent Jones, Sr.'s name attached to it.  Played there today since it was the closest course (1 hr. 10 min) to me not covered in snow--with another storm on the way tonight.  The front nine is just a flat field with 9 flagsticks and some ordinary greenside bunkering.  At least the back nine feels like an (unkempt) golf course, with some trees here and there and some fairway bunkers and doglegs.   The greens did present some challenges and were in decent shape.  But it was long enough and fair enough and it was golf and that was plenty good enough for me today.

Could not agree more, Marine Park is awfull.  I too played there in February a couple of years ago.   Finally when we had completed our round, we were locked inside the course and had to crawl under a fence!!!

Chris

[astavrides]

Wow, those are some high ratings.    Looks like some more projects to be done once Cobbs Creek is finished.  ;-)  Hope I get to see some of those courses (in whatever condition) some day.

Wow, Alex...good question.   I'm going to have to dig deep in the fading memory banks as it's been about 15 years since I played all the NYC munis, less Kissena Park and Mosholu.   Also, apparently some courses have had recent renovations done by Steven Kay and I'm not sure how those turned out.

Perhaps I should grade them as I played them back then on a Doak Scale put on Hyper_Curve, as the best one's are perhaps a 4 on the real scale so I need more gradients then that 

The NYC Muni Doak Scale on Hyper_Curve Ratings as as follows:  (note:  it's based on architecture only, as conditions at all of them vary widely due to a number of factors)

Bronx:

Pelham - 7
Split Rock - 9
Van Cortlandt - 3 (probably the worst course architecturally in NYC but you have to play for the history)

Brooklyn:

Dyker Beach - 8
Marine Park - 4

Queens:

Clearview - 5
Douglaston - 5 (note - too much of this course acreage was lost but still a handful of really good original holes)
Forest Park - 6 (A real surprise as I'd never heard anyone mention it)

Staten Island:

LaTourette - 8
South Shore - 6
Silver Lake - 5

I'm not sure if/how that helps at all, but that's how I recall them.

[Mike Cirba]

Alex,

Yes, but consider that a 10 on this scale translates to a 4 on the real Doak Scale. 

[astavrides]

Alex,

Yes, but consider that a 10 on this scale translates to a 4 on the real Doak Scale. 

Oh.  You mean if Split Rock and Dyker were in the best of restoration and condition, you still wouldn't give them more than 4 on the real Doak scale?  Or is the scale translation solely related to their present condition?

[Mike Cirba]

Alex,

I can't comment on conditioning as it's been 15 years.   I can't imagine any of them are too pristine, but conditioning isn't my big thing anyway as long as it's not over-watered.

Yes, what I'm saying is that the best of them are perhaps...perhaps a 4-5 on the Doak Scale, which is pretty damn good, plus you get the cool old architectural features of places like Split Rock and Douglaston and Dyker, as well to check out.

Of course, the time to play them is the winter....summer they are so crowded that it's not worth the aggravation.

However, with Snowmaggeddon upon us, this might not be the year for that.

[astavrides]

Ah, I see--you were using the antiquated muni Doak scale before.   

[Mike Cirba]

Ah, I see--you were using the antiquated muni Doak scale before.   

Yep, I put the Doak Scale in the Municipal Neutron Accelerator because I needed more gradients than his scale provided to split hairs between them.

[astavrides]

Ah, I see--you were using the antiquated muni Doak scale before.   

Yep, I put the Doak Scale in the Municipal Neutron Accelerator because I needed more gradients than his scale provided to split hairs between them.

Gotcha.  As long as we define our terms.  Sometimes decimal points just don't do the trick--especially if the scale is non-linear.  ('This one goes to 11').

[Mark Molyneux]

Many years ago, I read that classic America's Worst Golf Courses and saw Dyker featured prominently... a picture of player hitting a soft fade around a burnt out auto and another of a homeless couple's lean to. Then there were the mob stories. I said to myself, "Gotta play that place some day! Just to say you did it." Late last March, I finally got to Dyker Beach! Not much of a beach anywhere between 7th Ave. and the Belt Parkway but there was a nice golf course nestled in there. My first surprise in Brooklyn was the red tailed hawk that swooped down over my head to take a squirrel off the bench in front of the trailer / shop. The set up last spring was Spartan but it appeared that they are giving some thought to bringing back the old clubhouse which could be pretty impressive. From the tips, this is a 6400 yard proposition. The bunkers are set like management knows how many people want to play so let's not slow things up with lots of hazards. Only the fourth hole, a decent downhill 200 yarder had construction issues. In general and understanding that it was very early spring, maintenance was not a problem. Number 5 is the solid dogleg that calls for some strategy off the tee and has the spectacular bridge as a backdrop. The back nine features a truly challenging stretch of two-shotters from 13 through 15 at 441, 428, and 458. The golf course isn't nearly as tight or crowded as the surrounding neighborhood and for most of the round, save #9, you could almost forget you're in such an urban area. Like a lot of early 20th century tracks, the pro game has passed this place by but for most players, there's plenty of fun, challenging golf... which is probably why if gets so many rounds. I'm a Philly guy so laying props out to New Yorkers doesn't come easy but the city seems to have retrieved Dyker from the trash pile.

[Mike Cirba]

Mark,

You really, REALLY need to post more around this place. 

Well done, and thanks.

[Colin Sheehan]

What's very interesting about Dyker Beach is that it's where Earl Woods first witnessed golf in 1972. His own story explains that while he was stationed at Fort Hamilton in Brooklyn, upon returning from Vietnam, a friend of his was interested in golf and encouraged Earl to come check it out. So Earl let his friend check in and pay for the greens fee while Earl walked the first hole as a spectator and then played out of his bag from the second hole onward. That's what's incredible to me about Earl and his apprentice, Elderick a few years later. Earls was very new to the game when he began passing along the wisdom of the game to his son. I had always assumed Earl had been playing for years. Not at all. So in many ways, no Dyker, no Tiger.

[Brad Fleischer]

For those that don't know I live in staten island so to see this subject come up I just had to laugh a little to myself. Silver Lake, LaTourette,South Shore and Dyker are all courses I am very familiar with, Silver Lake being the very first course I teed it up at way back in
High School. Theses courses are not good by any stretch of the imagination , are usually in pretty poor shape and usually take at least 5 hours to play but they all bring back good memories in some form or another .

They are also the reason why way back when that I started to say to myself there has to be better places to play than this . So even though I avoid these places now whenever possible they are in fact the reason I got my interest in GCA and for that I am thankful.  If it wasn't for these places I would have never taken up the game or expanded my horizons.

I will say I never ever thought I would see Silver Lake, South Shore, Latourette or Dyker on Golf Club Atlas lol

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