[NAF]

Hmmn, lets see golf in Brooklyn in December?  When a friend suggested we go to Bay Ridge to play here on a cold and windy 40 degree day sugar plum fairways were dancing thru my mind..But I decided to pay the $26 (year round fee) and go. So what is Dyker Beach?  An 1897 Bendelow course with views of the Verezzano Narrows Bridge.  The property is mostly flat with some undulations on a few holes.  When I teed off I fully expected the first hazard to be driving over some burnt out Cadillacs and to see Mafioso types lying execution style in the bunkers.. Evidently, these hazards were true in the past along with people getting mugged while out playing some golf 10-15 years ago. One story was of a guy teeing off to a van bursting through the fence separating the course from 86th Street and doing donuts on the fairways..Instead I got pretty much a relatively green course that cards the most rounds of any course in the USA.

On the Doak scale Dyker would probably rate a 2 or 3..But there are some really good things about it.  I don't know if the course has changed much since Bendelow but it has a very good set of greens which shocked me..Many greens have subtle ridges, mounds, two tiers and are steeply pitched and small!  There were several good holes that utilized blind ridges..Some standouts (the routings have changed over the years)

5th hole- A 360yd Dogleg right over a blind ridge where your aiming line is the Brooklyn Poly Prep High School clocktower. The Verezzano acts as your backdrop.  The green here is two tiered and the super likes to place the flag right at the crest between tiers..

17th hole-A 211 yard par 3 that is elevated and crowned.  The green is tiny and you must carry the whole distance to have any shot at par..Severe drop off to the left and somewhat on the right make for touch pitches with no green to work with.. The green is severely pitched back to front.

18th A 400yd dogleg right finishing hole where the green is the star.  The green has a large swale/ridge running thru the middle of it making your appoach shot key.

In essence I would describe Dyker as little strategy at all off the tee, a good set of greens, horrible bunkering and not bad as Doak said to play with some friends in a scramble.  And go to Coney Island afterwards for a hot dog and the Cyclone!!!

[Chris_Hunt]

I believe the infamous Dyker Beach is featured in John Garrity's timeless classic, America's Worst Golf Courses, which I recently found in an Edinburgh library.  It is nice to hear that the property has some admirable golfing qualities, too.

[Mike Cirba]

Noel,

Now you're playing!!  Dyker Beach is one of the most character-filled courses on the planet, as I sense you've discovered!  

Incidentally, most of what is there now is the result of John Van Kleek, Wayne Stiles former design partner, who took on course design work for the city during the late 20s and through the depression, and is responsible for nearly all of the city municipal courses.  

Next, you need to go see his work at Split Rock with GeoffreyC and I!  

[John_Lovito]

Noel,

I'm glad to see you made it out to Bay Ridge, the land of my youth.  When I was in high school, Dyker beach is where I was introduced to golf.  The stories you heard are all true.  I can remember some very unique hazards on that course.  Like the burnt out Chevy Impala, down the left side of the fairway on one of the par fives, that forced you to the right and left you with a bad angle into the green.  Golf strategy at its finest!  

Actually I have many good memories of the place.  My friends and I would sneak in through a hole in the fence by the VA hospital and play a few holes after school.  Come to think of it, I have probably played more rounds at Dyker than at any other course.  My father-in-law still has his weekly wednesday round of golf at Dyker.  I have not been there since I moved to NJ eight years ago and I understand the conditions have improved quite a bit since American Golf Corp(?) took it over from the city.

Noel, it may be worth doing a match play between Dyker and Pebble Beach.

[NAF]

John,

That is zesty comparison I easily resolved..

Pebble 18-Dyker 0..

But you may be able to call Nathan's at Coney Island vs. the Tap Room a halve if you are from NY..

[John_Lovito]

Noel,

I have never been to the Tap Room, but I can't imagine it topping the origainal Nathan's, in either the food or ambiance categories.  It doesn’t get any better than a couple of dogs and fries washed down with a couple of loops on the Cyclone.  

[Matt_Ward]

Dyker Beach may not win any awards as "best this or best that" but it does have some fine holes.

The nines have changed a good bit over the years. The last time I played the course the dog-leg right 18th was the 9th. I can remember that Dyker was / is one of the few courses that I know that actually charges people to park in their course parking lot ($2). I can also remember quite a few cars being pelted with errant drives and second shots on that same hole. I also think of how lovely Hamilton Prep school looks with its stately tower just of the course property and visible from several holes.

Some of the par-4's and par-3's are very decent holes. On two of the par-3's you face holes in excess of 200 yards and a few of the greens are neatly elevated on the others. Unless you bring in the approach carefully and with some spin you face a severe penalty for any miscalculation. Also, as Noel stated the greens have a nice combination of pitch and slope.

The longest par-4 on the course is 447 yards and generally plays into a good headwind. You also have to work the ball in different directions when playing.

Dyker often comes up short in overall NYC ratings to LaTourette, but for the non-affiliated golfer looking to break into the game it's a grand place to learn the game. At 6,548 yards from the tips it will give plenty of game to most players although the conditioning aspect is always suspect.

I often think of all the sirens that go off when playing -- there must be no less than two hospitals abutting the course and I believe a police precinct and fire house. Never a dull moment. And let's not forget the patrons -- definitely characters out of the last Damon Runyon novel!!!

Noel and John -- you're take on the course is right on target. Dyker is not for the died in the wool GCA type who has been spoon fed doses of Shinnecock and National, but it's good golf for the guy / gal looking to play a course that has its moment. I'm not nominating it for any special place of distinction, but hats off to NYC and the efforts of AGC for keeping this little slice of heaven in Fort Hamilton!

[GeoffreyC]

Matt

Pelham/ Split Rock still charges $2 for parking as well although their parking lot is well out of range of any golf balls. Is this an AGC thing?

I for one have not seen a better NYC course (never played LaTourette or Dyker Beach) then split rock. I've said it before but if the city would transfer a few of the $18,000,000 it is spending on a J Nicklaus signature course a few miles away it would transforn it into a gem.  The cross bunkering and wild greens are classic. At over 6700 yards its quite a test.  Matt you, Noel and John should join Mike, Bill and myself for a winter round.  The mosquitos that could carry you away in the summer are long gone.

[Matt_Ward]

GeoffreyC:

You're on for a winter game!

You just have to play Dyker and LaTourette. The terrain, especially at LaTourette, is quite unique. Dyker is also good with rolling terrain that belies its congested urban location.

NYC golf is not great when compared to other major metro cites in the USA but you do have some outlets of pure enjoyment ) as long as you can tolerate half-ass conditions many of the times. The slow play can be brutal -- I've often thought they should have racks of newpapers to read while you're waiting.

I also have played Split Rock and Pelham and they do have their moments. I also think a round at Van Cortlandt is also a must see for any dedicated publinxer. Don't know about your comments on the mosquitos -- last time I played Split Rock in the winter I felt a few give me a welcome kiss -- they must be wearing fur coats those pesky creatures!!!

[Mike_Cirba]

Geoffrey, et.al.

As we discussed on the phone, I'm IN too for a winter outing at Split Rock.

I'd also concur with Matt that you need to play LaTourette, Dyker, Van Cortlandt (out of historical necessity, if little else), and even Forest Park, if just for a superb front nine, stretch beginning at 3.  Van Kleek designed 3 of the 4, and his work is quite good, even if the present day conditions are threadbare.

[Jeff Fortson]

Being a spoiled private country club golf professional I have not played Dyker Beach and I live less than 10 blocks from it in Bay Ridge.  I did however go there to practice my putting once and was introduced to muni golf hell!  I love muni golf, heck I grew up playing muni golf, but this was a scene I had never seen before.  It looked like the most crowded course I had ever seen.  The first tee looked like the US Embassy in Vietnam when we were leaving the country.  People were literally pushing to get to the starter.  There had to have been 1,000 rounds played that day and remember we're talking about an 18 hole golf course here.  The most horrific part of it all was that their putting green didn't even have holes, just pegs sticking out of the groud like croquet.  I don't know about you but I'd rather drive the 2 hours to the Hamptons and play some good old snobbish golf.

Jeff F.

[Mike_Cirba]

Jeff,

That's the beauty of "winter golf".  The crowds have thinned, and although it's hardly a 3.5 hour private club round, it's not only bearable but surely beats watching Sunday NBA basketball.

From an architectural standpoint, there's certainly enough of interest on some of these old NYC munis to merit a visit.    

[Greg Stebbins]

Reading these posts about the NYC golf courses makes me think about one thing, the annual NYC Amateur championship.  The qualifiers are at courses like Dyker and Pehlam/Split Rock but the tournament is always held on Memorial Day weekend at LaTourette.  The tournament always attracts a top notch field and LaTourette always proves to be a challenge.  The course has some of the most unique greens you will ever see!  Especially #'s 4,12,and 13.  

Good company and the everpresent sounds of horns honking in your backswing make the event a classic.  Definately try to play it if you can!

[GeoffreyC]

I'm a Bronx guy who walked to Yankee stadium to see Mickey Mantle.  We didn't usually go out to Brooklyn

I've played many a round at Van Cortlandt Park including some High School matches but the greens at Split Rock are worth the price of admission as is the chance to see a relatively unmodified Van Kleek design.

Jeff- all those guys by the starter at Dyker Beach were fighting over which one of them would be your caddie  

[John_Lovito]

GeoffreyC,

Count me in for a winter round at Split Rock.  I'm a Brooklyn guy who feels right at home in The Bronx.

John

[GeoffreyC]

John

Excellent.  We'll have a couple of foresomes.

No disrespect was intended towards our friends in brooklyn although when I lived there the rivalry was quite real.

[John_Lovito]

Geoffrey,

No disrespct taken.  My feeling at home in the Bronx refers to the fact that I spent my college years there.

[John_Conley]

Naffer:

You get props just for going out!

Funny how people weigh in favorably about a course that is pretty dreadful when they feel compelled to bash above-average courses all the time.

Further proof to me that your expectations create a measuring stick from which any reviews will be judges.  If you have low expectations, an upside surprise is easier.  Perhaps a lot of the favorite whipping boys are a victim of their own success?  Higher expectations lead to disappointment.

I'm as guilty as anyone, and have set up deciles for the courses in my area so I am always comparing the one I last played to everything else out there.

[NAF]

Geoff, Mike,JAL (zesty)

I am very much up for a winter round in Jan or Feb..
I just don't want Lovito as my partner...as he is a Mets fan.
Despite the fact that I am from Brooklyn too (got out when I was 10) I am more of a Jersey guy and my team is the Yankees!

John L, the ambience of the tap room is quite good, I must say but you have to get out to Pebble.

Matt Ward-good synopsis on Dyker.  The par 3s were definitely the best set of holes there. The 6th hole I believe is the long 447 par 4 of which you speak..The wind came west off Staten Island and the Narrows and I was the only one to get home in 2..It played a good 2 club wind..

John C.  After Sand Hills, I am opening my eyes to all types of architecture..True I prefer to go to the Met or Moma to see the great works, but sometimes the street artist can show you something to.  

[GeoffreyC]

John

Split Rock is hardly a course that could be called "pretty dreadful ".  In fact, there is some really excellent architecture there with intellegent cross bunkers, deep catch bunkers behind greens on long par 4's to snag hot shots from long irons or woods that were required back then to get to the putting surfaces, intellegent use of wetlands (I doubt you could build this course the same way today), variety everywhere except no long par 5, and lastly a set of greens built by Van Kleek that are really awsome.  Those greens have slope, tiers, small and huge mounds and a variety of shapes.  The routing is also well done, following the natural flow of the land with few parallel holes. If this course were restored and maintained it would be quite special.  In a sense, its lack of maintenance over the last 90 years or so has helped it maintain its design integrity.  

[Mike_Cirba]

John Conley,

I was going to reply similarly but Geoffrey beat me to it.

I'm really not sure that "expectations" are the issue here.  The courses we mentioned are not the best maintained, certainly, and suffer from overcrowding while in season.

However, they are also built on interesting rolling terrain, feature intimate, walkable routings, are rather challenging (particularly in colder weather), lay very naturally on the land, have generally wide playing corridors, and have some really neat old green complexes, some very highly imaginative and fun.  One is apt to finish with the same ball that they teed off with, and the sights and sounds of the nearby city also create some unique atmosphere.

I don't think anyone is proclaiming them as hidden gems, per se, although I agree with Geoffrey that Split Rock could be pretty marvelous restored properly.  I think Noel pointed out that Dyker might be a 3 or so on the Doak Scale, largely because of conditioning issues than any lack of fun, interesting, playable golf.

Instead, these courses stand as very economical, historical testaments to a game for the masses and still serve that purpose effectively today.  In contrast to much of what is being built today, with 18 "signature" holes, $100 plus green fees, tons of manufactured "features" designed to be more visually spectacular than truly interesting from a golf standpoint, and million dollar clubhouses, the Split Rocks and Dyker Beaches of the world provide a nice low-key alternative where everything on the golf course is there for one purpose only....to play golf.  

On a grey, still day in the winter months, slinging a bag on your shoulder and having at it out there can be sublime.

[Stuart Bendelow]

Mike Cirba,

After reading the last paragraph of your reply above I couldn't help but feel that Tom Bendelow would have responded with a hearty "Amen".  A driving force behind his work was to get people to enjoy the game of golf.  Most of his course layouts (600+) were municipals, designed for the average player and economical enough for the locality to maintain.  The fact that so many of his courses, like Van Cortlandt Park and Dyker Beach, continue to serve such large numbers of golfers is a testiment to his contributions to American golf.

[Matt_Ward]

I only wish the great City of New York would try to rehabilitate at least one of their layouts per Borough. AGC has done a decent job but when they started the process years ago the only place to go was up.

I've periodically visited a few of their courses where they have the management contract and the results are no best than average. Don't even begin to call the starting areas tees -- that would be a gross distortion.

I concede working on NYC layouts in the midst of such congestion and relentless play in tandem with the ever present possibility of vandalism makes things tough, but some of the layouts as already mentioned are indeed interesting and could be better -- on par with other large metro areas.

The historic charm of Van Cortlandt still rings true today and as I, as well as others who have mentioned, it's always fun to be at Dyker and take in the total scenery. Brooklyn and golf what a wonderful combo --"Yoo Adrian who's got da honyer on the next hooole."

I'm ready for some winter golf ...

[John_Conley]

I believe the infamous Dyker Beach is featured in John Garrity's timeless classic, America's Worst Golf Courses, which I recently found in an Edinburgh library.  It is nice to hear that the property has some admirable golfing qualities, too.

Geoff:

I thought the thread was about Dyker Beach, which Noel played, not Split Rock - unless it goes by both names.  Hearing that it made someone's list of "America's Worst" sure doesn't make me want to play it.

Your post and the one after it from Mike both are right in line with my thinking.  I celebrate average courses all the time.  Just ask McDowell.  I love to play and having a decent course to play on is all I require.  I'm the only guy I know of who ever praises Joel Goldstrand's work.  I know the difference between average, very good, great, and heavenly... but I can play on anything better than awful and enjoy it.  I took Noel to Mystic Dunes and North Shore and we had a great time.

Others (not Geoff or Mike) on this board have bashed Fiddler's Elbow, which I've played, Pelican Hill, and many others.  Particularly courses by Tom Fazio and Rees Jones.  They courses they do are all so much better than the national average that it's a joke, primarily a function of the type of projects they select.  Large budgets don't hurt.

A 3 on the Doak Scale is average.  That seems to be the best anyone can say about Dyker.  "America's Worst" and being shutout 18-0 by Pebble, a course I think has quite a few below average holes, imply below average.  Yet people have kind things to say about it.  I'm sure I would too.

Winter Park has a 9-hole municipal near my office.  It is par 34 and about 2000 yards long.  The par 4s are less than 300 yards but dogleg.  It is WITHOUT QUESTION in the bottom decile of courses in my area.  

That said, I have told everyone that hole 4 is one of the most unique and special holes in America.  About 540 yards, the hole plays between a cemetary (OB) and church (also OB).  You cross a dirt road that still functions as a city street (only unpaved road in WPk) on your doglegging second shot.  To set up a clear approach for the third, you either have to lay back to play over or poke it past and right of the yawning tree.  A couple bunkers in front of the green, you'll want to avoid going long (road) or right (RR tracks).  You have to see it to believe it and would never tire of playing it.  For dead flat in a city's downtown, it is as good as it gets.

[Patrick Hitt]

Mabye you guys should think about adding Douglaston to the winter rotation. A little better drainage, good rolling terrain, and a ton of architectual character. I didn't get to play there or Split Rock as much as Dyker, Van Cortland, or even Bethpage because there is no easy train ride. Nothing like bumping people in bay ridge with the carry bag.
By the way the biggest dissapointment in the 5 boroughs has to be Marine Park. Glass in the rough and a snoozer layout on a waterfront property.

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