[Jim Jackson]

Recent discussion on other threads has led me to wonder why we write and speak fondly of Pete Dye courses but hear relatively little about one of my favorites, Crooked Stick.  I've been fortunate to play a few times and have it solidly in my personal top 10. 

I find it to be top notch championship test, and a compelling piece of work, especially on what was a relatively flat and featureless plot of land.  Not to mention it is a wonderful club.  I just finished Chris Wirthwein's "Crooked Stick Golf Club," one of my recent favorite club histories.

I wonder why it's not profiled on Ran's "courses by country."  Is is less well-regarded as a result of re-designs over the years?  Perhaps some of you who have played both CS and some of the earlier Dye works, i.e. The Golf Club, or other prominent clubs in the region, i.e. Camargo could comment.

Thanks!

[John Kavanaugh]

I love Crooked Stick but feel it earned a reputation of being one dimensional when John Daly became it's most visual champion. You add Indiana to the mix and It gets hard to get the east coasters to drink hillbilly Kool-aid.

[Tim_Cronin]

I love Crooked Stick but feel it earned a reputation of being one dimensional when John Daly became it's most visual champion. You add Indiana to the mix and It gets hard to get the east coasters to drink hillbilly Kool-aid.

Funny how this works, isn't it. Most remember Daly bashing the ball all week, but what won the PGA for him was hitting nearly everything to within five feet and making everything, including on Sunday, when nobody made a charge. And with Squeaky on the bag with Nick Price, whom JD replaced as ninth alternate, a late WD.
The BMWestern Open is there this September. First chance for the lads to play it since 2001.

[John Kavanaugh]

I can not think of another club so tied to a champion in a negative way.

[Jim Jackson]

Also interesting that the Sr Open was won by an entirely different kind of player, Fred Funk

[Matthew Rose]

John Daly still had to make putts.

[Sam Morrow]

I think John is on the right track, Crooked Stick does get a negative stigma because Daly won but does it help any that he won at St. Andrews?

[Chris Wirthwein]

Hey Jim - Thanks for the nice words about the Crooked Stick book. Having spent a fair amount of time researching the establishment, design and construction of Crooked Stick, I must say I too am puzzled why there is so little talk about the course and club. I am, of course, biased.

The historic and personal connection of the club to Pete and Alice Dye for mearly half a century makes it a notable course in the history of the game. A few years ago, I spent some time with Tom Dunne on his "Out and Back" website talking about Crooked Stick, Pete and Alice. here's a link to the interview in case anyone wants a quick snapshot of the place:
http://www.out-and-back.net/?p=1033

I have played at Crooked Stick for 12 years and have also played many of Pete's other designs, including The Golf Club. I believe The Golf Club receives more critical favor due to: 1) its relative seclusion (lots of land, no houses) and 2) the appearance that little has changed since the course opened 40+ years ago. (Don't know if this is true or not, but the course feels as if it has been little touched.)

 Crooked Stick on the other hand is ringed by houses. And many would say that Pete has made too many alterations over the years. I don't share that belief. The routing of the course is very much the same as it was upon opening of all 18 holes in 1967. The only major exceptions would be: moving the first tee (making the hole a straightaway hole vs. the original dogleg), the relocation of the 17th green (vastly improving the hole in most people's opinion) and perhaps the alteration of the 18th green complex and adjoining water hazard. (It was originally a massive double green --  the practice green and a practice bunker attached to the back of the hole's green.) Many, perhaps most of the other alterations, are aesthetic (addition of some trees, enlargement  of water hazards) or "spectator viewing" modifications: viewing mounds, perches, etc., which have made the course into a venue where tournament patrons can more easily see the action.

my two cents...other thoughts?

[Matthew Essig]

I haven't played in person so I can't comment on Crooked Stick... However I will be playing it on the new tiger woods game that comes out at the end of march...      ... That's right I admit it.... When there's absolutely nothing to do and the streets are iced over I play tiger woods golf... I want to play it in real life extremely bad though!!!!!!

[Andy Troeger]

I think its easy to forget that there were great courses built from 1940-1980, just perhaps not in large quantities. I think Chris hit on a lot of the other reasons as well. Crooked Stick is a great golf course, IMO comfortably in the US Top 100, but perhaps not as aesthetic in spots as many of the others. I have a soft spot for it since it was the second top 100 course I played, and the other is no longer rated that highly (Point O'Woods). Its hard for me to believe its been 16 years since I played it!

I played Oak Tree National this year for the first time, another Dye design on similar type terrain. Ironically, it doesn't get discussed here either! I think its the best course in Oklahoma, with apologies to Southern Hills. Its probably even tougher than Crooked Stick after the recent renovation, but they have a lot in common.

[PCCraig]

I really like Crooked Stick and am also surprised it doesn't get more discussion. Chris' thought about the houses is interesting as other than on the left side of #8 I don't really remember too many homes that are outwardly visible. Crooked Stick has some really cool holes though; #6 the par 3 is great, the stretch from #13 to #15 is awesome (I love the tee shot on the 14th, and the green on the 15th is fantastic), and the 17th is a really cool Redan style par-3.

Crooked Stick is really a first rate club with a wonderful golf course. Hopefully the 2012 BMW (Western) spurs more conversation regarding the course.

[Jim Franklin]

I think its easy to forget that there were great courses built from 1940-1980, just perhaps not in large quantities. I think Chris hit on a lot of the other reasons as well. Crooked Stick is a great golf course, IMO comfortably in the US Top 100, but perhaps not as aesthetic in spots as many of the others. I have a soft spot for it since it was the second top 100 course I played, and the other is no longer rated that highly (Point O'Woods). Its hard for me to believe its been 16 years since I played it!

I played Oak Tree National this year for the first time, another Dye design on similar type terrain. Ironically, it doesn't get discussed here either! I think its the best course in Oklahoma, with apologies to Southern Hills. Its probably even tougher than Crooked Stick after the recent renovation, but they have a lot in common.

You liked Oak Tree better than Karsten Creek?

I like Crooked Stick. I met Pete Dye there on an upper 30s, rainy October day. He was the only guy on the range. I loved the dedication. Plus their head pro could go down as the nicest guy in golf.

[Billsteele]

I like Crooked Stick a great bit. However, I think it is a tale of two nines. The front nine seemed a bit squeezed and somewhat uninspiring (although I like #6 and #8). The back nine is excellent and, to me, one of Dye's best efforts. I think The Golf Club hangs together as a whole much better than Crooked Stick but I would never turn down a chance to play in Pete's back yard.

[Lou_Duran]

I can not think of another club so tied to a champion in a negative way.

Champions and Orville Moody.

Chris- I've been in the company of some members a few years back when the subject of the frequent alterarions came up.  It was said that when Mr. Dye is in town, members grab their wallets and hold their breath.  Supposedly, Muirfield Village and Pinehurst #2 when Mr. Ross was alive might be the only two who have had more surgery.  I am sure it was just affectionate joshing.

I think that CS is a fantastic course despite a very unusual start.  I like the first hole to introduce the theme of the course- Sand Hills' #1 does this very well.  While CS's #1 is a fine short hole and would work well further in the round, it is not a good start in my opinion (ditto for Black Mesa's #1).

[Sam Morrow]

I can not think of another club so tied to a champion in a negative way.

Champions and Orville Moody.

Chris- I've been in the company of some members a few years back when the subject of the frequent alterarions came up.  It was said that when Mr. Dye is in town, members grab their wallets and hold their breath.  Supposedly, Muirfield Village and Pinehurst #2 when Mr. Ross was alive might be the only two who have had more surgery.  I am sure it was just affectionate joshing.

I think that CS is a fantastic course despite a very unusual start.  I like the first hole to introduce the theme of the course- Sand Hills' #1 does this very well.  While CS's #1 is a fine short hole and would work well further in the round, it is not a good start in my opinion (ditto for Black Mesa's #1).

Sorry Lou, nobody remembers that Orville Moody won the Open at Champions.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JakaB,

I don't think there's any negative vibe or transference associated with John Daly's PGA Championship.
Quite the opposite, it was a fairy tale story combined with "the long ball".

A golfer from out of the blue, who arrived only due to unusual circumstances, with a wild swing who bombed the ball, camouflaging  a great short game, AND, the guy played fast, super fast compared to the agonizingly slow competitors.

You can't ask for a better story.

And proving he was no fluke he wins another major, the British Open, on an entirely different type of course playing a game Nicklaus was unfamiliar with (deja vu Bobby Jones).

Back to Crooked Stick.

Terrific course, fine membership, great architect .......... Location ?
Like Prairie Dunes, the location, the limited exposure might be the reason it doesn't get more notoriety.

[Scott Sander]

Random thoughts from my nest a coupla miles east of CS:

The par 3's are extremely good but rarely discussed.   Each is distinct visually (which is not always the case with a Dye course), and they each make a different primary demand off the tee - in order: distance, direction, spin/shape, and guts.  

I could not agree with John more about the Daly hangover.  I LOVED that week and walking along with Daly on Sunday, but the only image 99% of all golfers can now remember is Daly walking up 18 fairway, bulkheads in the background, with his fist, mullet, and moustache all waving in the wind.  Of all the major moments and winners, I cannot think of any that other currently looks so hopelessly dated.  Its also, IMHO, completely contrary to what CS actually is.

   The  "storyline" was 'Burly Simpleton Makes Monster Course Look Small' - but that was wrong then and is now.   CS had enormous length on the card, but it did not and does not play that long.  Every hold bends and everyone cuts the doglegs (that's the point of bunkers instead of trees, innit?) - Daly just cut more than anyone ever had.  Then he made the putts.  Good on him.  

I've always thought the billing during that CS acquired during that PGA tournament (longest test ever) was, while true, a real disservice.  

Another point of note:  it's the kind of club and membership that many here would really appreciate:  all about golf, encouraging to young golfers, and the clubhouse is exactly as well-appointed as it needs to be but nothing more.  

I do think there is a certain sameness about a few par 4's.

 I also agree with Lou's assessment of #1 - it is an almost shrouded start to what is otherwise a very open course.  Later in the round, it would be an excitind departure.  Instead, it's like running out of a tunnel into a freeway.

[Andy Troeger]

After reading a few more responses and having another day to think, I would argue that Indiana's three best courses (IMO of course) are all woefully underrated nationally. (Caveat: native Hoosier, even if I moved away for better weather amongst other things). Wolf Run and Victoria National easily rank among the best fifty or so courses in the country--both have been ranked highly at times by the mags but not consistently. I personally prefer both to a whole host of fabulous courses that get far more press, including Bandon Dunes, Chambers Bay, Pinehurst, and Prairie Dunes. I haven't played Chicago GC, but excluding it they both best anything else in the Windy City, which has a fair share of a top level clubs. I go back and forth as to whether Gozzer or Victoria is Fazio's best, but am leaning VN lately because its more walkable.

That leaves Crooked Stick. I think it has suffered a little bit in recent years from no longer being the Best in State, but even at #3 for me personally its quite good. I don't really think the Daly bit hurts--if anything it gives people a reason to remember the course. I think getting the BMW tourney this year will help bring it back out of the shadows. I do think the comments are true regarding the front nine--its good, but the first half especially doesn't really keep up with the rest of the course.

[Chris Wirthwein]

Random thoughts:

The par 3s -- agree with Scott...they are all distinctly different design-wise and visually. 13 is a gem of a shorty. 150-180 or so, slightly downhill, with a creek and tall trees scattered down the valley. With the pin tucked far left, you can barely see the top ot the flag - a bit of a dogleg left. The wind swirls, and swirls and swirls - sometimes into you, the next instant with you before it turns and crosses. The green is like hitting onto the top of a tent - big ridge running through the middle. Miss a few feet the wrong way and you face a 60 ft putt up and over that ridge. Cool hole.

Pete -- Yes, he spends lots of time walking the course (and coming up with ideas). I have a letter from Pete to our club president from the 1980s wherein he describes hole by hole what changes need to be made in order for Crooked Stick to host a major. It is a long letter.  In the end, Pete did exactly what he laid out and Crooked Stick did host a major. Amazing guy.

The membership -- it is what many here talk about, dream about. Small  membership (225 regular members), golf only... The members here love the game. The range gets more use than the course. No tee times. Modest clubhouse. Lots of emphasis on youth golf and suprting the game, Evans Scholars, etc. The place is really special. I grew up playing muni golf with second hand clubs, Acushnet Club Specials/Kroflite balls (found, not purchased) and I pinch myself every time I tee it up there. It's golf, just golf, all about golf.

Another major -- no idea if we'll get one, but seems crazy to me that no Dye course has hosted an Open. Even Pete'smentor, Bill Diddle, has a major on one of his courses. (In Texas...course escapes me...maybe where Moody won?)

[Lou_Duran]

Another major -- no idea if we'll get one, but seems crazy to me that no Dye course has hosted an Open. Even Pete'smentor, Bill Diddle, has a major on one of his courses. (In Texas...course escapes me...maybe where Moody won?)

Bill Diddel designed Northwood CC in Dallas in the mid 1940s, but Ralph Plummer supposedly did a lot of work on it before the 1952 US Open won by Julius Boros.  The course has been renovated since by Weiskopf and Morish.  Nice course, but not in CS' class.

[Chris Wirthwein]

Lou - thanks for catching the typo in Diddel. In my Crooked Stick book I think I spelled Harvie Ward "Harvey.". (I halfway believe my editor changed it in proofreading. Don't have the heart to go back and check the manuscript.

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