Golfweek: GB&I course rankings

[Sean_A]

Sean I also think that old courses get much more 'points' than the  new ones in the ratings. Largely I think ratings are screwed up because the raters have not seen many of the new courses and have not had years of good press and clubhouse chat that so in so is good etc.  At the end of the day the real price of success is more how folks part with their money factored over location, in that respect the majority of golfers actually prefer the 'Belfry type' over the 'Woking' type. This site would not believe the peoples champion if 'the people' did the ratings. There are plenty of new courses that will over take the old ones in time as more the raters will come from the younger persons of today that are more into The Belfry than Woking. As far as I am aware only 10% of the rating panel on Golf World have visited The Players Club, if I was a rater I would only have visited 40% of the top 100. I have always though the best ratings would be by a panel that rated their areas, I have a detailed knowledge of my county and probably another three touching counties I am sure many people would be in the same position of that area knowledge.

Adrian

I don't have a beef with the new/old divide in terms of where the best fall on the list.  Of the ones I have seen only Enniscrone makes the grade as great which more or less means it should be in the conversation for top 100 world. 

TEC, Carne, Tralee, Hillside, Bearwood Lakes, St Andrews Castle (if the drainage and a few greens were sorted out I could see myself calling this top 100), Kintyre, Donegal & Forest of Arden are all good to very good, but not exceptional.  Everybody says the listed top 5 are all exceptional - I doubt I will ever find out.  Lets call it ten (being generous) courses that can stake a claim to top 40 GB&I.  That sounds like a lot to me when I think of all the terrific classic courses. 

Ciao 

[James Boon]

I've always liked the principal of an classic / modern divide when I've seen it in the US course ranking, but it just doesnt seem to work for the GB&I rankings. Far too many mediocre course on the modern list for me.

The classic list starts okay then gets a bit off track by not including the likes of Saunton (East), Berkshire (Red) or Notts (was also tempted to mention Burnham but Michael has already) and yet Westward Ho! and Nefyn get a mention. Sure 40 is a tough number to narrow down for the classics, but some obvious omissions and odd inclusions for me? Is Wallasey that good?

Cheers,

James

[Sean_A]

I've always liked the principal of an classic / modern divide when I've seen it in the US course ranking, but it just doesnt seem to work for the GB&I rankings. Far too many mediocre course on the modern list for me.

The classic list starts okay then gets a bit off track by not including the likes of Saunton (East), Berkshire (Red) or Notts (was also tempted to mention Burnham but Michael has already) and yet Westward Ho! and Nefyn get a mention. Sure 40 is a tough number to narrow down for the classics, but some obvious omissions and odd inclusions for me? Is Wallasey that good?

Cheers,

James

Boony

I am not sure if Burnham belongs up there, I probably wouldn't include it.  That said, I think it is at least as good as Saunton or Notts, but its been a while since I saw Saunton.  That shall be rectified in 6-7 weeks. 

There is always the curious case of RND.  I would really like someone to put forward a good case why this course should be considered top 100 GB&I let alone the world.  Ran took a shot in his profile and failed miserably.  Just look at his choice of photos - all the holes by the beach.  That says it all.  Doak sensibly kept his head under the parapet with a more reasonable, but still a bloated score of 6.  Can anybody with a love of this place make a proper case?

Ciao

[Mark Bourgeois]

To me the clear mistake is Burnham and Berrow...I dont think many an Englishman would place Wallasey ahead of B&B..but that is an opinion.
I cannot understand the thoughts that Ganton is better than Woodhall Spa...but admittedly I am a huge Woodhall Lover and place it in my world top 20...I just think it offers the finest heathland golf in the UK....but I actually think both are better courses than the more high profile Sunningdale Old....but again that is my opinion which is what we are all sharing here.

Overall I think Golfweek has done a great job here..without any selections that stand out as being politically motivated...unlike GD's rankings that nearly always "smell" as little funny to me.

 MichaelI would really enjoy a discussion --perhaps over cake! -- regarding the merits of Hotchkin and Ganton. I think if I reversed the mentions of the two courses it would roughly fit my thoughts.

Like you, I am under no illusions my view is the right one, just my preference.

Well, I do feel neither course should be forced to suffer comparisons with the other, and in a world where so many things must scream to be heard, I really do rate those rare things that are sublimely excellent and excellently sublime. So for me maybe it's the idea of Ganton as much as the actual design...nah, I think Ganton rocks.Would rock more if they brought back Pandy. WE WANT PANDY !! WE WANT PANDY !!

[Mac Plumart]

I am no expert on GB&I golf, but to those of you that are...where would you put Askernish on the classic GW list...that is, if it deserves to be listed?

[Scott Warren]

MWP, Sean, James,

Burnham is another one -- with Silloth and St Enodoc mentioned earlier -- that makes me question where the raters responsible for this list are based.

It seems that if you charted the courses named -- classic especially -- they would all be on the popular tourist paths.

[Sean_A]

Scott, if we take out the moderns, this list is what Golf World think the top 40 classics are.  It can easily be argued the British publication is closer to the nut than Golf Weekly.  There are a few dubious choices like Machrihanish and Hillside, but no obvious gaffs like Nefyn and RND.  The one really obvious omission on the part of Golf Monthly is Rye.  This omission is as perplexing as the Golf Weekly's inclusion of Nefyn and RND.  That said, how any modern course gets rated above Ballybunion is really incomprehensible.


Golf Monthly's 2010 Top 100 Courses Rankings for the UK and Ireland:

1      Muirfield
2      Royal County Down
3      Turnberry - Ailsa
4      St Andrews - Old
5      Royal Birkdale
6      Royal St George's
7      Carnoustie - Championship

9      Ballybunion - Old
10    Royal Lytham & St Annes

12    Royal Dornoch - Championship
13    Royal Liverpool

15    Royal Portrush - Dunluce
16    Lahinch - Old
17    Sunningdale - New

19    Woodhall Spa - Hotchkin
20    Sunningdale - Old
21    Royal Aberdeen - Balgownie

23    Ganton
24    Royal Troon - Old

26    Portmarnock - Red & Blue
27    Gleneagles - Kings
28    Walton Heath - Old
29    Royal Porthcawl
30    Nairn - Championship

32    Hillside
33    St Georges Hill - Red & Blue
34    North Berwick
35    Wentworth - West
36    Saunton - East
37    Machrihanish
38    The Berkshire - Red
39    Rosapenna - Sandy Hills
40    Swinley Forest
41    Formby
42    Burnham & Berrow - Championship
43    Prestwick
44    Royal West Norfolk
45    St Enodoc - Church

47    Royal Cinque Ports
48    Walton Heath - New

Ciao

[Scott Warren]

I always found Golf World in the UK was the list I found myself nodding along with.

Golf Monthly not so much.

Amazing that list gets to 14 before it heads inland!

[Sean_A]

Looking at the GM list again, I notice Rosapenna as top 40.  This places it just outside top 5 classic and comfortably top 10 in Ireland.  I haven't seen the course - is it anywhere near this good?

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Looking at the GM list again, I notice Rosapenna as top 40.  This places it just outside top 5 classic and comfortably top 10 in Ireland.  I haven't seen the course - is it anywhere near this good?

Ciao

I'm with Scott in that I always liked the Golf World list better than the GM one... That said, Golf Monthly really upped their game with the last list and have many of my favourites (e.g. Lahinch) in what I see as more appropriate positions...

In answer to Rosapenna Sandy Hills, the course is spectacular but I feel it is very hard and uncompromising. Also (and this may sound strange) I found the dune sizes and shapes to be somewhat monotonous at Sandy Hills... I think Mr.Ruddy did some wonderful things there but in all honesty, I found the Old Tom / Strand course to be more fun.

In Golf Digest Ireland, we had Sandy Hills at 25

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I agree Golf World has always seemed like the one I agree with the most...and mark, interesting to see they have our two so close to eachother...I dont think we can argue with that...they both should just be higher

[Tom Kelly]

Would it not be fairer though possibly even more complicated to rank courses within type/style groups?

How about a links list, a heathland/moorland list and a parkland list?

I often find myself thinking many courses get an extra bump up the lists purely on the basis of being a links course even if the layout itself is nothing special and thus end up being ranked higher than many other excellent layouts which suffer because they aren't by the sea.

For instance in my own personal list I would rank Notts higher than Royal Aberdeen (I may be slightly bias being a local lad!), yet Aberdeen is at 21 on the golf monthly rankings and Notts isn't even on the list.

Personally I love heathland golf so I find it very hard to be objective when comparing a heathland course to a links or parkland one (That said my three favourite courses are all links courses!) and I am sure it must be the same for the majority of people who more than likely prefer links golf.

Surely it is far easier and far less subjective to compare say Sunningdale to Walton Heath than The Grove to Royal Aberdeen? Then people with particular preferences for one type of golf can see where they should be aiming to visit.


This still leaves the old problem of reputation skewing the rankings though, that the Golf Monthly list Sean posted exhibits pretty well.......

Are Lytham and Carnoustie really better than Dornoch? Or is Wentworth better than Swinley Forest and host of other heathland courses which don't even make the list?

I can't see it myself!

[Mark Pearce]

Silloth doesn't even make the GM list Top 50.  That's bonkers.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Silloth must be very close if not those two places, it was in the top 50 in 2006 and 2008 at 48.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

St Enodoc should be higher. All in all this is very good for early in the life of the list. It speaks highly of how deep and good the history of great golf courses in the UK are. It also points out how hard it is for the modern to match up quality wise. Clearly the time break does not allow for quanity to level out.

[James Boon]

As a comparison to the Golf Monthly list, here is the Golf World list from 2011, top 40 Classics from that list:

1.   Turnberry
2.   Royal Brikdale
3.   Royal County Down
4.   Muirfield
5.   St Andrews Old
6.   Carnoustie
7.   Royal Portrush
8.   Sunningdale Old
9.   Woodhall Spa

11.   Royal Dornoch

13.   Royal Lytham & St Annes
14.   Ballybunion

16.   Portmarnock

18.   Royal Liverpool
19.    Royal St Georges
20.    Walton Heath Old
21.    Saunton East
22.    Royal Troon
23.    Wentworth West
24.    Nairn
25.    County Louth
26.    Sunningdale New
27.    Lahinch
28.    Ganton
29.    Gleneagles Kings
30.    West Sussex
31.    North Berwick
32.    Berkshire Red
33.    Alwoodley
34.    Formby
35.    Royal Aberdeen

37.    Prestwick
38.    St Enodoc

40.    Royal Porthcawl
41.    Royal Cinque Ports
42.    Western Gailes
43.    Royal St Davids
44.    Notts

46.   Royal West Norfolk

48.    Cruden Bay

And these are the Modern's excluded from the Golf World list to make up the Top 40 Classics:

10.    Loch Lomond
12.    Waterville
15.    Kingsbarns
17.    European Club
36.    Doonbeg
39.   Hillside
45.   Castle Stuart
47. Carne

I counted 31 of the Top 100 as modern, and the bulk of those seemed to be in the upper section of the list. It makes me wonder if some of them are worthy of places ahead of say Moortown, Brora or Beau Desert which dont make the top 100, but those compliling the list have taken more notice of the publicity around newer courses, or a desire to be "fairer" and get a spread of ages of courses???

Cheers,

James

[James Boon]

Sean,

You are probably right about Burnham, and it was just local bias talking, but as Scott and mark and others have suggested its probably alongside Silloth, St Enodoc and a few others as being very worthy of a place, there just arent enough places...

Thomas,

Interesting idea regarding the lists being based on types of courses, but I suspect that would only lead to the debate about what constittes a true links or heathland course, more than the courses relevant positions in the list. Would be interesting to see though?

Mac,

Askernish, I love Askernish! But I would put it on the Modern list rather than the Classic. It is afterall a palimsest rather than a restoration, but that doesn't make it any less worthy. However, putting it up against the classic links is tricky. Putting it alongside Mach Dunes or Castle Stuart makes for a more interesting comparison, and I'd happily put it just outside the top 10 on the Modern list, but then I'm a sucker for the Hebrides!

Cheers,

James

[Jud_T]

I'd put the chances that there are 13 courses better than Ballybunion Old at zero.

[Mac Plumart]

Thanks James...and good point.  Top 10-15, or so, is pretty good.