Great, cheap and empty.

[John Kavanaugh]

Is it possible for a course to have all three attributes?  I am afraid many empty, cheap courses are not as great as we tout them to be.  Are there any examples?

[PCCraig]

Define "cheap."

Lawsonia? I think the golf course is great, and I've never played a slow round there. But I think that has more to do with its location than anything else.

[Dan Kelly]

Don't know about "empty" (it was jammed with GCAers on my first visit -- which will not be my last), but great and cheap IMO:  Lawsonia Links.

[Sean_A]

JakaB

I have never seen a course I would call great and cheap.  The closest I come to it is Kington.  I love the course like no other, it is cheap, but I can't call it great let alone empty. 

Ciao

[John Kavanaugh]

Lawsonia is a fine example.  I grew up on a Langford & Moreau course in Vincennes, Indiana that was an exact replica of Lawsonia with the exception of some rebuilt greens.  I never felt it was a great course.  The one time I played Lawsonia, the only course I have ever sought out and played alone because of an architectural pedigree.  I came away rather bored with it all.

I am not sure how fair it is to call it empty considering they have found the funds to keep 36 holes in top condition.  Somebody is paying something somewhere.

[George Pazin]

Empty is good by definition. So is cheap. The combo is nice, though not necessarily great; kinda depends on how beneficent you're feeling that day.

[Jim_Kennedy]

JK,

If "Cheap" means a fee that is under the average rate for an area, and the course is great, it will have players.
If "Cheap" means a fee that is under the average rate for an area, and the course is only decent, it will have players.
I don't think it's possible to find your three factors lining up, unless a course is too remote (highly unlikely) or in an area that is overbuilt.
 
Do you have any in mind?

[Lou_Duran]

Wild Horse in NE?  There is a 9-holer near the south entrance of Glacier National Park (MT) that cost a few bucks, had some very good holes, and I had to myself on two beautiful summer mornings.  The key to satisfy this criteria, in addition to definitions, is population density- crappy courses in SoCal weren't all that cheap, and crowded from dawn to dusk.  

[Chris DeNigris]

John,

I would think G, C & E could occur when the location is a bit remote and really tough to get to. I can think of one that fits the bill in South Central PA although it's not really good enough to be considered great (very good though). That would be Pilgim's Oak, in Peach Bottom, PA.

Or possibly when the course is perceived as too tough for the masses and they gravitate towards the C,C & O (Crappy, Cheap and Overflowing) type courses...which unfortunately abound where I live.

[Dan Kelly]

The one time I played Lawsonia, the only course I have ever sought out and played alone because of an architectural pedigree.  I came away rather bored with it all.

That's too bad. I wasn't bored at all.

But I'm sure I have lower standards for "great" than many people here have.

And a higher (or is it lower?) bar for "boredom."

[K. Krahenbuhl]

Is it possible for a course to have all three attributes?  I am afraid many empty, cheap courses are not as great as we tout them to be.  Are there any examples?

With an old, established private absolutely.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Great, cheap and empty tends to go with Location. There cant be any real reason why something would be great and cheap and no one be there. Askernish comes to mind.

[Mark Saltzman]

In Florida over the past month I played plenty of daily-fee courses.

Some of them were cheap (under $50, a couple in the $20s), but those ones were busy.  None of them were great.

Some of them were expensive (rack rate over $100, one $180), and those ones were empty.  None of them were great.

I don't know any courses that qualify for "great, cheap and empty".

[JMEvensky]

ANGC.

[Chris DeNigris]

I think Scotland has a few others as well...The Machrie and Machrihanish come to mind. No matter how cheap these places will always have a tough time achieving volume.

[Kalen Braley]

The closest thing I can think of is Wine Valley.

Its great and usually empty...and its cheap relative to how much one would pay for what is in my mind a top 100 modern course.

[George Freeman]

Is it possible for a course to have all three attributes?  I am afraid many empty, cheap courses are not as great as we tout them to be.  Are there any examples?

With an old, established private absolutely.

You'd probably be missing the cheap part in those instances...

[Bill Seitz]

How expensive does something have to be before it's no longer cheap.  I've only played the Links of North Dakota a couple times, but it hasn't been crowded, and I think it's a terrific golf course.  Current greens fees are around $70 (cheaper if you're driving through and get the triple pass, I'm pretty sure).  

Also, part of the equation it would seem are additional costs of getting there.  It may be great and empty, and the fees may be cheap, but that's only really relevant if you're one of the 30,000 or so people (and that's being generous) who live relatively close.  My cousins are an hour and a half away, and even if you live that close, you're adding an extra $25 or $30 in gas alone.  

[Mark Pearce]

Can someone explain why everyone thinks empty is a good thing?  I don't want to play a club where getting on is difficult, or the number of people slows things down but golf is a social sport and I like the feel of being one of many out on course and the buzz of a reasonably full bar afterwards.

[K. Krahenbuhl]

Is it possible for a course to have all three attributes?  I am afraid many empty, cheap courses are not as great as we tout them to be.  Are there any examples?

With an old, established private absolutely.

You'd probably be missing the cheap part in those instances...

Not at all.  Certainly not in relative terms.  One man's cheap is another's splurge, so it is hard to define price.

Exclusive - yes
Expensive - no

[Kalen Braley]

Can someone explain why everyone thinks empty is a good thing?  I don't want to play a club where getting on is difficult, or the number of people slows things down but golf is a social sport and I like the feel of being one of many out on course and the buzz of a reasonably full bar afterwards.

Empty or almost empty means you get to play 54 holes in one day....in March. 3.5 Hr rounds, no one in front of you.  Even in a sun limited month like March it works.  No way you do this on a "normal day" in terms of people on the course.

[John Kavanaugh]

JK,

If "Cheap" means a fee that is under the average rate for an area, and the course is great, it will have players.
If "Cheap" means a fee that is under the average rate for an area, and the course is only decent, it will have players.
I don't think it's possible to find your three factors lining up, unless a course is too remote (highly unlikely) or in an area that is overbuilt.
 
Do you have any in mind?

No I do not, as a matter of fact I will often rely more on market forces to determine what is great over ratings.  I think Torrey Pines must be great because it is never empty.  I just can't say that Wolf Run is great because it is both cheap and empty.

I'll probably go see the movie The Artist.  I'm sure it will be empty.  It can be a tough standard.

[Jim_Kennedy]

JK,

There is one way to play some great courses on the cheap. 

World Woods is around $30.00 in the summer, and it can be very empty at that time.

[Kalen Braley]

JK,

If "Cheap" means a fee that is under the average rate for an area, and the course is great, it will have players.
If "Cheap" means a fee that is under the average rate for an area, and the course is only decent, it will have players.
I don't think it's possible to find your three factors lining up, unless a course is too remote (highly unlikely) or in an area that is overbuilt.
 
Do you have any in mind?

No I do not, as a matter of fact I will often rely more on market forces to determine what is great over ratings.  I think Torrey Pines must be great because it is never empty.  I just can't say that Wolf Run is great because it is both cheap and empty.

I'll probably go see the movie The Artist.  I'm sure it will be empty.  It can be a tough standard.

John,

There are dozens if not hundreds of munis in California that are packed year round as well.  Just because an area is under served in terms of course supply, doesn't necessarily imply greatness.

I can guarantee most of the munis here in Spokane are better than the ones in the bay area, yet they aren't packed due to a much smaller population base.

[John Kavanaugh]

Can someone explain why everyone thinks empty is a good thing?  I don't want to play a club where getting on is difficult, or the number of people slows things down but golf is a social sport and I like the feel of being one of many out on course and the buzz of a reasonably full bar afterwards.

The problem with being an asshole is that it is contagious.  Some people are better off playing golf in an isolated environment.  I must be one of those people.  It seems like my foursome catches every group in front of us and is then caught by every group behind.  It never improves the day.