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Philippe Binette

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yes, you red that right, great golf architecture has nothing to do with the playing of golf.

Reading Jeff Mingay's blog on the other stuff, http://mingaygolfcoursedesign.blogspot.com/2012/01/some-of-other-stuff.html  I came to this conclusion..

So many courses have been designed with the playing of golf in mind. You see it what you look at the plan of a course. you know the architect was like: ok fairway there, then a bunker at 250 on one side, 275 on the other (for strategy), then at the green, a bunker here, there, a swale here.
the designed is fragmented and doesn't create an overall landscape in which the golf is played. It leads to boring courses.
Once those guys are renovating courses: disaster strikes.

Great golf architecture is about the overall picture, landscape...

JESII

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Re: Great golf architecture has nothing to do with the playing of golf
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2012, 09:38:34 PM »
Phillipe,

Agree that using formulas is bad

Couldn't disagree more however with the topic sentence.

Without golfers there would be no golf course architecture!

Philippe Binette

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Re: Great golf architecture has nothing to do with the playing of golf
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2012, 09:50:54 PM »
care about the golfers... but you can't anticipate how they are going to play the course. so don't care about the playing of the golf

Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re: Great golf architecture has nothing to do with the playing of golf
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2012, 10:19:11 PM »
This has room to drive people crazy but I certainly do not agree with the premise in its literal interpretation.

Adam Clayman

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Re: Great golf architecture has nothing to do with the playing of golf
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2012, 12:40:26 AM »
The premise works, because it qualifies "Great".

It is ultimately about the landscape.  Behr said it in so many more words, but, the crux is there.

And as Tom Doak once said in here "It's the medium for the sport, not the sport." 

« Last Edit: January 27, 2012, 12:55:05 AM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Philippe Binette

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Re: Great golf architecture has nothing to do with the playing of golf
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2012, 01:20:08 AM »
Actually, maybe there is some exceptions... The work of Seth Raynor and CB MacDonald, since they built templates which strongly implies the playing of the golf.

but they were also pretty good at the other stuff to make it work.

Just a thought

Sean_A

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Re: Great golf architecture has nothing to do with the playing of golf
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2012, 02:09:28 AM »

yes, you red that right, great golf architecture has nothing to do with the playing of golf.

Reading Jeff Mingay's blog on the other stuff, http://mingaygolfcoursedesign.blogspot.com/2012/01/some-of-other-stuff.html  I came to this conclusion..

So many courses have been designed with the playing of golf in mind. You see it what you look at the plan of a course. you know the architect was like: ok fairway there, then a bunker at 250 on one side, 275 on the other (for strategy), then at the green, a bunker here, there, a swale here.
the designed is fragmented and doesn't create an overall landscape in which the golf is played. It leads to boring courses.
Once those guys are renovating courses: disaster strikes.

Great golf architecture is about the overall picture, landscape...


I am baffled by this pronouncement.  How can we know its great architecture without playing and/or seeing shots played?  Looks can be very deceiving. 

Ciao 
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Jud_T

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Re: Great golf architecture has nothing to do with the playing of golf
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2012, 08:41:50 AM »
Great architecture addresses both the game and the landscape, otherwise it's simply a nice garden.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great golf architecture has nothing to do with the playing of golf
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2012, 09:47:11 AM »


And as Tom Doak once said in here "It's the medium for the sport, not the sport." 




Without the sport there is no medium. Without the sport there is nothing to discuss. If you can't talk about HOW the course/hole/individual feature effected your play then the architecture is completely irrelevant. This is not to say the original work on courses no longer existing was irrelevant.

That said, if you paid an architect $XXX to build a course and promised it would never be played even once what do you think their reaction would be? What kind of course do you think you'd get? Would their sustainability/maintenance plan matter? Drainage?

Paul Jones

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Re: Great golf architecture has nothing to do with the playing of golf
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2012, 09:50:48 AM »
Seth Raynor - did he ever play golf?  But he kept building good/great courses.

However, ..."nothing to do with playing of golf" is streching it.

Paul
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

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Re: Great golf architecture has nothing to do with the playing of golf
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2012, 09:51:48 AM »
Should the title be:

Great golf architecture has nothing to do with the playing of GREAT golf

 ???  ???


JESII

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Re: Great golf architecture has nothing to do with the playing of golf
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2012, 09:55:24 AM »
Maybe I've completely missed Phillipe's point...

Are we talking about the golf skills of the architect? Or are we talking about the quality of the architecture and its relationship to people playing the game of golf?

Niall C

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Re: Great golf architecture has nothing to do with the playing of golf
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2012, 09:59:06 AM »
Phillipe

I think you are confusing a pleasant landscape and nice views with what really makes a great course. Aesthetics can help but its the playing charcteristcs of the hole/course that make it great and you simply can't divorce that from playing the game in my view.

Niall

Paul Jones

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Re: Great golf architecture has nothing to do with the playing of golf
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2012, 10:05:26 AM »
I might have missed the point of this discussion... and I might be missing it again :-)...

If it is about landscape and picture - wouldn't Old Head be the greatest course?
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great golf architecture has nothing to do with the playing of golf
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2012, 10:13:43 AM »
I might have missed the point of this discussion... and I might be missing it again :-)...

If it is about landscape and picture - wouldn't Old Head be the greatest course?

Paul

You could start your own thread with that one. I would think Royal Tarlair would be in with a shout also.

Niall

Kalen Braley

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Re: Great golf architecture has nothing to do with the playing of golf
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2012, 10:15:31 AM »
Did you steal that title from The Faz?!   ;D

Put me down also in the group who disagrees with that statement in general.  The proof is in the pudding so to speak, so great architecture should have everything to do with how one interfaces the course and is able to golf thier ball over it.

The 1st course that came to mind with this statement is Ballyneal.  I consider it "great golf architecture" but only because its so much damn fun and a hoot to hit the little white ball around its various playing corridors and greens.

Philippe Binette

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Re: Great golf architecture has nothing to do with the playing of golf
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2012, 11:08:15 AM »
I'm not saying landscape and aesthetics is what makes a course.

I'm saying: since everybody plays the game differently, who plays golf the right way of the wrong way.

If you go out design a course with what the land gives you, or shape what you feel is right you'll have a good chance of building a great course.

You can't overthink stuff.

Overthinking happens in formulaic bunkering for example
but so is building a 10 feet wide swale at a certain angle so players would aim for the left side of the fairway of the tee, than hit an approach from 180 yards, low and running through that swale to access a back hole location.

The fact is, on a 1000 rounds, 1 guy might play the hole that way, (but that day the pin was in the front). Players aren't precise enough, and those who are just don't care about it.

The architect can consider the perception of the play, but not the playing of the game in itself

SL_Solow

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Re: Great golf architecture has nothing to do with the playing of golf
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2012, 11:41:23 AM »
Interesting in light of Geoff Ogilvie's recent remarks that great golf courses produce better tournaments and better winners.  I understand that a lot of what makes for great architecture has only an indirect impact on play, such as drainage.  i further understand that very few players play a hole as the architect intended.  but of course, that statement implies a form of architecture that seeks to dictate the form of play.  In my view, the best architecture presents options for solving the problem each hole presents on a given day and it is up to the player to construct the best solution given their skill level.   My basic problem with the statement is that a golf course is, by definition, a playing field for the game of golf.  Unlike other games, the field has far less definition.  It can be used for other activities; witness the Old Course on Sundays.  It is a habitat for for animals.  But its reason for existence is to host the playing of our sport.  Hence, it can only be great if it provides a great venue for playing the game.  The ongoing debate is, what constitutes the best type of venue for achieving that goal?  Just as the playing field is relatively free form, so is the definition of a great golfing experience.  Hence our continuous discussions of various features, our ratings of differnt courses and our evaluation of architects.  But unless we are discussing landscape architecture, and not golf course architecture, it all comes back to whether the architecture provides an interesting and challenging venue for playing the game.

Philippe Binette

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Re: Great golf architecture has nothing to do with the playing of golf
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2012, 12:03:08 PM »
The statement is obviously a little strong... but golf course architecture is done by feel (at least those who work on site, and curiously produce the best stuff)

There is a thought process, based on golf knowledge, studying other courses, and technical knowledge... In the end, it's somebody feeling (perception) that what he is going to do is the right thing.

The architect envisions the shots. The stuff is built, but it's not right, the visual balance is wrong, so the bunker is expanded (or whatever) , or 3 more yards of fairway here, or ... until he feels it's right.

It's subjective and the final decision is more than often a matter of fitting the look to the shot (envisioned by the architect) then the shot to the look.. He feels because of those 3 more yards of fairway, it feels right, it lead the shots better... perception not game

SL_Solow

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Re: Great golf architecture has nothing to do with the playing of golf
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2012, 12:23:26 PM »
Phillipe;  I am not in the business although i have been involved from time to time.  Based on my discussions with those who are involved as professionals, i believe that your description of the creative process is insightful, at least for a significant percentage of those involved in design.  But even if they are designing in significant part by feel and not with a particular shot in mind, in the end what matters is how does the end result work as a playing field for golf.  The feel you refer to is a perception as to how the land, including the visuals, works best to create a golf course or an individual hole or a portion of a hole.  If the golf is left out of the equation, then one is left with the proverbial "dumb blonde", all looks but no substance.  If your statement is merely to suggest that a great course cannot be built by formula; that there is a fair amount of art that accompanies whatever "science" or calculation is included in the process, you won't find any argument here nor from most of us on this site.

Garland Bayley

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Re: Great golf architecture has nothing to do with the playing of golf
« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2012, 12:36:11 PM »
I would say great golf architecture has everything to do with the playing of golf.

It seems you are critiquing golf architecture that is specific to how the best play the game. That has nothing to do with golf in general. Great golf architecture has everything to do with how everyone plays the game. I.e., it gives everyone challenges and rewards. Therefore, it has everything to do with the playing of golf.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re: Great golf architecture has nothing to do with the playing of golf
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2012, 12:54:02 PM »
Actually I disagree with inserting the word great. the most creative and great short game shots I have ever seen were on incredibly designed green complexes like ANGC. This premise fails. Great architecture and playing golf are connected. they do have something to do with each other. Yes you can play golf in an open field or on the side of a hill. Yet the architecture does have something to do with it and impacts it. The structure of the game itself is tied to architecture.

Philippe Binette

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Re: Great golf architecture has nothing to do with the playing of golf
« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2012, 01:42:22 PM »
Of course the architect design the course to be a place where the game is played.

what I mean is that you design a canvas on which the game is played (the canvas included greens contours, bunkering, routing aesthetics), but when you do "Design" you can only put your perception of how to play the hole, but not consider it too much

which means if you design the course with enough variety, you'll end up with good golf... if you design the course with the playing in mind, you'll end up with formulaic stuff.

it's kind of a which comes first question: architecture as a whole leading to good golf or architecture for golf trying to create an entity