The sixth hole at Riviera

[Brad Isaacs]

I recently played Riviera and in discussing the sixth hole with my companions a divergence of opinion occurred.  Is the sixth gimmicky, stupid or genius? Please help me out.

[Tom_Doak]

It's all of the above, depending on the position of the hole, the bunker, your ball, and your opponent's ball.

[Philippe Binette]

I don't see it as gimmicky,

if you miss your shot 15 yards left on a par 3, you often end up in the rough over a bunker, in a bunker, sometimes in a lake...
on the 6th at riviera, you end up on short, really short grass... not bad

the bunker is there, in the middle of the green, going for a flag close to it is risky... figure it out

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brad,

It's certainly unique.

I think Tom's correct in that many opinions are framed by the circumstances surrounding the golfer's play.

[Jim Nelson]

Genius, I say, genius!  But really it was just too much fun watching your putt roll into the bunker.  Priceless.

[Terry Lavin]

Architectural self indulgence of a kind that one simply can't get away with anymore.

[Anthony Gray]

 Give me something memorable about each hole.

  Anthony

[Peter Pallotta]

Architectural self indulgence of a kind that one simply can't get away with anymore.

Perhaps you're right, T.   It certainly draws attention to itself, to its own architecture.  No one ever seems to compare it to a Raynor template, but it engenders the same kind of question -- does one go for shot-testing/playability or for aesthetic/natural nuance, or both. I guess not every great golf hole needs to do both.

Peter 

[Adam Clayman]

On my one and only, the hole was closed. But, Dan and Dave built a similar one here at Bayside, and. it's easily the most fun hole, for every level of golfer.

[Jim Eder]

I absolutely love it. It can be set up so differently so many times so that it can be a very different hole from day to day.  It is like a hole with several greens and the distances can be short or rather long.  I just love the way one can change the set up for several days in a row and one feels like they are playing a totally different hole.  Love it.

[Terry Lavin]

I've played the Riv a handful of times.  It's one of my favorite courses in America, a great place to play and study architecture.  Despite its quirky nature, I like the sixth hole.  It's playful, ingenious and pretty unique.  I'm surprised that it has drawn a template at Bayside, but will be intrigued to play that as well.

[Matthew Petersen]

Architectural self indulgence of a kind that one simply can't get away with anymore.

Really? Because it has shown up on several relatively new courses, including the Norman TPC san Antonio course where the PGA Tour plays.

Maybe current guys can only get away with it because the 6th at Riv set a precedent?

[John Kirk]

My only objection to this hole is the tee shot from the back tee.  The back tee is close to the tree line on the egde of the property.  There's almost no room to start your ball out to the right, if you play right-to-left shots.

I like the green.  I imagine the club only puts the pin in the back right on rare occasion, to limit divots on the green.

[C. Squier]

The green is contoured in a way that a two putt is possible from damn near every location.

Genius.

[Ben Sims]

The question for each of the holes is this, is there value added by having a bunker in the green?  I have played four versions of the bunker-in-the-green "template."  Riviera was easily my favorite based on the Eden-like qualities of the hole and the contours that allow almost any manner of getting around the bunker.  Bayside was solidly my second favorite for the same reasons--and a little counterlsope that I pointed out to Adam.  Dismal River #10 isn't a bad golf hole, I just think it would be much more fun from an angle well to the right of where it is teed now or if there wasn't a bunker in the green at all.  TPC San Antonio is a poor version of the hole and the bunker serves zero purpose.  The green is too big and the pros just darted in on the seperate areas of the green, no slopes or elevation to contend with.

All in all, I don't think the hole is gimmicky if it is sized correctly or sloped correctly.  But a bunker in the green for the sake of having a bunker in the green--like TPC San Antonio--is gimmicky.  

[Tim Leahy]

What do you want, it's Hollywood!

[Bob_Huntley]

Tim,

Pacific Palisades is not Hollywood.

I love posts like this it, allows me to show off; I aced it in 1975. I've also used a wedge on the putting surface.The sixth is a superb hole but as Tom Doak pointed out, it could well be otherwise dependent on the flag positon.

Bob

[Tim Leahy]

Sorry Bob, but most of Hollywood country club types live in the Palisades or Malibu.
And wasn't Riviera originally opened because LACC wouldn't let actors in as members?

[Pete Lavallee]

Bob,

On my one play at The Riv, the score card specifically stated: Putters Only On The 6th Green! Did you receive special dispensation?

[J_ Crisham]

Brad,  I played here last Thursday and found it to be a great hole that accepted a variety of shots. The pin was back left and one player was pin high right-simple two putt. One player was front edge center- 3 putt. I was 8 feet below the hole- 2 putt. As Clint opined,the internal contours of the green allow for putting from most everywhere. Obviously Bob Huntley has logged the most rounds as a past member so it is fair to assume that he has seen the good,the bad, and the ugly side of #6. At 160 yds it was a heck of a lot easier than #4 at 235yds into the wind!

[Kevin Pallier]

Genius....often most mid-length P3's one would generally get up there and aim for the middle of the green.

The 6th makes you think a bit more and the green slopes add to the challenge.

[Lynn_Shackelford]

Some good points here.  I was a member for 15 years, unfortunately about the last 10 years they started alternating play on the 6th hole with another funky green.  So I didn't get to play the hole as often as others on the course.  Ownership was more concerned about the condition of the green for the pros then how they treated the members.  There, that makes me feel better.

Kirk is right, the new tee in back is bad, all about trying to offset how far today's players hit it.  John Daly started hitting 9 irons from the original back tee and it headed downhill after that.

Interesting comment about not being able to go at the middle of the green, truly makes the hole unique.  Members don't chip on the green, the pros do.  I have seen Steve Pate and John Daly chip, that was fun.

Yes, you can putt from almost every spot to almost every other spot.  There was a great front middle hole placement at one time, but it has been mostly eliminated by a new contour there.

Ron Whitten wrote in the Riviera history book, which by the way is well authored, that even without the bunker the green and the hole would be great.  I think that is mostly true.

I have seen Proctor and Axland's hole at Bayshore, haven't played it, but it looks good.  I know Dan spent a lot of time working on the front bunker at 6, and I am sure he soaked in all the nuances of the green.  Maybe I will send Benham some pictures if I can find them, and he will dutifully post them.

[Ian Andrew]

I happen to love the 6th at Riviera. My admiration in this instance stems from a brilliant set of green contours that allow a player to work the ball around the bunker. I believe this green to be one of the better set of contours I have seen. I love this hole as a "one off", something unusual and “brilliantly executed”.

I actually don’t care for the hole as a concept. To me a bunker in the green is a gimmick. The only reason for building a feature is for aesthetics because essentially all you’re doing is creating a series of smaller targets. Usually the green has been expanded to the point that you end up with two greens worth of turf, for what, to feature a central bunker? I’ve yet to find a second hole of this type that works for me. I've seen a few, all on fours and each time it makes the bunker feel like it was put there to show off how clever the architect is rather than for strategy. I see its use as attention seeker rather than clever ploy.

I’m all for creativity and finding unusual ideas that can be incorporated back into designs, but golf architects need to recognize that just because a hole is famous doesn’t mean the concept is worthy of duplication.

[JMEvensky]

Bob,

On my one play at The Riv, the score card specifically stated: Putters Only On The 6th Green! Did you receive special dispensation?

They don't call him Sir Bob for nothing.

[Bob_Huntley]

Pete,

That was in 1975; I believe the no wedge edict came in with the the purchase of the Club by Mr. Wantanabe at a later date.

Bob