[Lester George]

Kalen,

You assume there is land cost (and there is) but if Dormie develops the facility it is a wash.  If Dormie doesn't develop the facility, the land would be conveyed for a dollar the the entitiy taking the risk of development (therefore no land cost).  

So, you just knocked off a million dollars.  Assume you develop the facility for 2 million.  How much is maintenance?  Say 400k. (easily) Operations is another 300k.  Now, you only have to generate 800k to 900k to make a nice return.

If the 4 best teaching professionals in the world visited 2 times a year each for a two day personal lesson (750 dollars), and you had demo days from the top 5 equipment suppliers 1 time per year you could host as many as 1,000 idividuals for specific events.  There is 750k.  Then your 20 dollar per round would only have to generate 10,000 rounds to make it to 950k.  

Even without Dormie it makes sense that this thing could be profittable given those assumptions.  

Now, would I be confident about doing this in Iowa?  No.  But Pinehurst seems to be a better risk especially if you factor in the "being different and fun" factor.

Just my opinon.

Lester

[Mike Nuzzo]

Lester
Are you serious about your revenue stream or only joking?
Mike

[Lester George]

Mike,

Are you seriuos with your question?

Lester

[Brett_Morrissy]

Lester,

what is meant by the term "Proving" in calling it "Practice and Proving Ground" ?

[Mike Nuzzo]

Lester
Yes I am.

How willl you get 16 days of the best teachers?
How much will that cost? $80k
What is the most someone would pay for a clinic?

Has anyone ever paid for a demo day?
Why would someone pay $750 dollars to use a new utility wood when they could play the next day for $20?

Best
Mike

[Don_Mahaffey]

Lester,
Do you do pro formas for the NGF?

[JC Jones]

Lester,

Watch out, Team Wolf Point is after you!!

If someone besides Dormie develops it, do you think that a membership avenue might be developed? 

[Lester George]

Mike,

You need to re-read what I said.  The 750 would be the two day seminar with the marquee teachers. 

BTW, the worlds number 1 teacher has visited the site with me and agreed it would be "the best practice facility in the country", and others (teachers) have been discussed with interest. 

Also, one consideration would be that Dormie would "contribute" the maintenace in exchange for reciprocal use if developed by a third party.  Don't assume I am going to give all of the details on this site.  Suffice it to say, a business plan is being worked on, revenue is being conservatively plugged in and there is interest from several on how this could be structured.  There have even been discussions about Golf Channel involement.

JC,

Yes the membership idea has been kicked around as well as the golf package tie in to the resort/hotel industry.  I once built a 3 hole practice facility with a short game area in a high-volume market.  In the first year the owner sold 5,000 memebrships to the practice facility alone! Something team Wolf Point doesn't appreciate.

Lester

[Lester George]

Brett,

I hae to give credit to Glenn for thinking up the "Proving Ground" in the title.  For clarity, the definition follows:

"A proving ground is the US name for a military installation or reservation where weapons or other military technology are experimented or tested, or where military tactics are tested. The usual British term is training area.

While these types of facilities are generally referred to as military or government establishments, there are examples of civilian industry that have their own proving grounds to test their prototypes and new technologies."

Lester

[Ben Sims]

Kalen,

You assume there is land cost (and there is) but if Dormie develops the facility it is a wash.  If Dormie doesn't develop the facility, the land would be conveyed for a dollar the the entitiy taking the risk of development (therefore no land cost).  

So, you just knocked off a million dollars.  Assume you develop the facility for 2 million.  How much is maintenance?  Say 400k. (easily) Operations is another 300k.  Now, you only have to generate 800k to 900k to make a nice return.

If the 4 best teaching professionals in the world visited 2 times a year each for a two day personal lesson (750 dollars), and you had demo days from the top 5 equipment suppliers 1 time per year you could host as many as 1,000 idividuals for specific events.  There is 750k.  Then your 20 dollar per round would only have to generate 10,000 rounds to make it to 950k.  

Even without Dormie it makes sense that this thing could be profittable given those assumptions.  

Now, would I be confident about doing this in Iowa?  No.  But Pinehurst seems to be a better risk especially if you factor in the "being different and fun" factor.

Just my opinon.

Lester

Lester,

Wow.  I want to be in the practice area business with numbers like that.  Before opining on what "team Wolf Point doesn't appreciate,"  I would probably rethink those numbers a bit.  The club I belong to opens for play to the outside public during Masters Week (an entire week) and charges a Masters week kind of number to each foursome (50 foursomes a day for 7 days).  I'll be honest, it doesn't generate three quarters of a mil for the club.  

My opinion is that floating ideas that involve the "worlds number 1 teacher" and "golf channel involvement" is a sure fire way to take what appears to be a first rate community/club facility and turn it into something more ugly and shallow.  

[Mike Nuzzo]

Lester

When did you have Fred Shoemaker visit the site?

You listed 1000 people at $750 each for teaching & demos - both being specific events.
I think that is beyond reasonable.

I hope you have lots of great plans for the place.
I thought it looked cool.

Mike

[JC Jones]

JC,

Yes the membership idea has been kicked around as well as the golf package tie in to the resort/hotel industry.  I once built a 3 hole practice facility with a short game area in a high-volume market.  In the first year the owner sold 5,000 memebrships to the practice facility alone! Something team Wolf Point doesn't appreciate.

Lester

Very cool.  I'll be interested to see what develops. 

The good news is you've hit the Team Wolf Point trifecta and we've learned that because Palmetto turns $350k worth of tricks during Masters week that the Dormie proving ground can't be successful.

[Don_Mahaffey]

JC,

Yes the membership idea has been kicked around as well as the golf package tie in to the resort/hotel industry.  I once built a 3 hole practice facility with a short game area in a high-volume market.  In the first year the owner sold 5,000 memebrships to the practice facility alone! Something team Wolf Point doesn't appreciate.

Lester

Very cool.  I'll be interested to see what develops. 

The good news is you've hit the Team Wolf Point trifecta and we've learned that because Palmetto turns $350k worth of tricks during Masters week that the Dormie proving ground can't be successful.

JC, there is no "team Wolf Point"
If Lester makes it work then I'd be happy for him; believe me I'd like to see one of these types of pro formas actually cash out for the investor.
You obviously like the idea so don't talk on a web site, write a check. Walk the talk.

[JC Jones]

Don,

That's exactly what I said.  If they start a membership program, I'm interested.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Dormie proving ground can't be successful.

I said it won't earn $750k on clinics and demo days.
please don't put words in my mouth.
cheers

[JC Jones]

Dormie proving ground can't be successful.

I said it won't earn $750k on clinics and demo days.
please don't put words in my mouth.
cheers

I didnt.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Don,

That's exactly what I said.  If they start a membership program, I'm interested.

JC, Then I hope it works out for you and Lester. I'll be interested to see how it all plays out. While I don't have a great feeling about the plan Lester laid out, he now says there is a lot more to the story. I'm certainly not rooting against him or his project and probably should have just said it looks great and leave it at that.

 

[Ross Harmon]

Very cool concept Lester! Hope it comes to fruition!

[Jud_T]

Looks like an awesome plan.  Only thing I don't understand is that I thought originally that they couldn't afford to pay C&C to do the finish work on the course and now they're putting in a huge practice facility?  Did I miss something or is this simply an entirely different business entity?

[Ben Sims]

JC,

Yes the membership idea has been kicked around as well as the golf package tie in to the resort/hotel industry.  I once built a 3 hole practice facility with a short game area in a high-volume market.  In the first year the owner sold 5,000 memebrships to the practice facility alone! Something team Wolf Point doesn't appreciate.

Lester

Very cool.  I'll be interested to see what develops.  

The good news is you've hit the Team Wolf Point trifecta and we've learned that because Palmetto turns $350k worth of tricks during Masters week that the Dormie proving ground can't be successful.

What's the point in being inflammatory?  I'm having a conversation and using real world examples, you're slinging mud.  I'll be excited to see what develops as well.  The plan looked exceptional and I said as much in the beginnings of this thread.  My point was that the numbers used above are nothing of any real substance and--IMO!--don't reflect real world conditions.  We all can have a dialogue about that if you wish.  If you'd like to continue to needlessly inflame a situation, have fun.  

[JC Jones]

What is inflammatory is your use of the words "ugly" and "shallow."  Don't try to come on here and pretend your post was something other than what it was. 

I wasn't being "inflammatory", I was pointing out the sheer ridiculousness of your "real world" example.  Please connect the dots between Palmetto's CCFAD policy and the Dormie Proving Ground.

How many golf course developments have you been a part of?  How do you know whether or not any numbers have substance?  I'll take Lester's experience over yours, any day.

[Ben Sims]

What is inflammatory is your use of the words "ugly" and "shallow."  Don't try to come on here and pretend your post was something other than what it was.  

I wasn't being "inflammatory", I was pointing out the sheer ridiculousness of your "real world" example.  Please connect the dots between Palmetto's CCFAD policy and the Dormie Proving Ground.

How many golf course developments have you been a part of?  How do you know whether or not any numbers have substance?  I'll take Lester's experience over yours, any day.

I'm not pretending JC.  I wrote what I wrote.  It addressed actual fact and opinions based on those facts.  Whereas you're just yelling on a chat room for no reason and purposely trying to rile myself and others that have posted here.    

My opinion is that the project will become inflated--like most golf developments have become--the more things you start adding to it and attaching it to.  That includes celebrity teaching days and the golf channel and whatever else.  Those things take away from the simpler aspects of people that are paying to use the facility, whether that's Dormie Club or the general public.  I don't think 750K for a few teaching events is realistic.  I base that opinion on a down economy (find me 750 people to pay 1000K for a two day "seminar").  But I also base it on a number generated by a weeks worth of people paying top dollar for an outside facility.  Like I said, it's not 750K.  If Palmetto isn't generating 750K for a weeks worth of outside play during Masters Week, then I doubt a practice facility can generate 750K for a two day event.  

If you want to defend the abridged pro formas in Lester's original post, be my guest.  It's going to be a tough sell to say that a place that ambitious only requires 950K a year to operate and turn a profit.  

I love the idea of this facility and think it could work.  But--as I said above--simpler is better.

[Michael Blake]

Just read the latest Golf Inc. and saw something somewhat relevant.  There's an article on, 'Operational success stories from 2011' and there are maybe 10 examples from various clubs.

To leverage their state-of-the-art practice facility, 1757 Club created 'innovative programs.'

One is high-end instruction clinics, featuring Gary Koch and Carl Rabito, in addition to other things like Hawaiian Luau themes, range mat bar service, cigar and scotch tasting at the Golf Academy, casino night.

Says revenue is up 10% due to these 'unique programs & activities.'

I'd be interested in seeing actual numbers.

[JC Jones]

What is inflammatory is your use of the words "ugly" and "shallow."  Don't try to come on here and pretend your post was something other than what it was.  

I wasn't being "inflammatory", I was pointing out the sheer ridiculousness of your "real world" example.  Please connect the dots between Palmetto's CCFAD policy and the Dormie Proving Ground.

How many golf course developments have you been a part of?  How do you know whether or not any numbers have substance?  I'll take Lester's experience over yours, any day.

I'm not pretending JC.  I wrote what I wrote.  It addressed actual fact and opinions based on those facts.  Whereas you're just yelling on a chat room for no reason and purposely trying to rile myself and others that have posted here.    

My opinion is that the project will become inflated--like most golf developments have become--the more things you start adding to it and attaching it to.  That includes celebrity teaching days and the golf channel and whatever else.  Those things take away from the simpler aspects of people that are paying to use the facility, whether that's Dormie Club or the general public.  I don't think 750K for a few teaching events is realistic.  I base that opinion on a down economy (find me 750 people to pay 1000K for a two day "seminar").  But I also base it on a number generated by a weeks worth of people paying top dollar for an outside facility.  Like I said, it's not 750K.  If Palmetto isn't generating 750K for a weeks worth of outside play during Masters Week, then I doubt a practice facility can generate 750K for a two day event.  

If you want to defend the abridged pro formas in Lester's original post, be my guest.  It's going to be a tough sell to say that a place that ambitious only requires 950K a year to operate and turn a profit.  

I love the idea of this facility and think it could work.  But--as I said above--simpler is better.

Yes, the words "ugly" and "shallow" are addressing fact and not an attempt to rile or be condescending....perhaps, I'm not grasping your prudence.

I'm not going to "defend" Lester's numbers, unlike you, I don't have the substantive operations knowledge to make an informed opinion; and even if I did, Lester has more experience in that world than I'll ever have so I'd still defer to him.  Hence why I limited my comments to Lester to a sincere hope that it would succeed.  Perhaps I can take a few online turfgrass classes and spend a week at Dismal spreading seed and then I'll be able to accurately dissect approximate numbers (not a pro forma) posted on a website and be able to discern the substantive from the shallow.  

Have you seen a pro forma or, rather, an abridged pro forma?  Then again, you didn't connect the dots between Palmetto and the Dormie Proving Ground so I'm not anticipating a straight up answer to that question either, just another attempt to distract by labeling my posts as inflammatory or riling.  

[Jud_T]

As an aside, I was at the clubfitters today and was shocked to hear that custom club fitting is growing 10% a year and is the fastest growing part of the golf industry and they've just been bought out by a private equity firm that's looking to grow nationwide.  So while this plan may be out of the box and not what were accustomed to seeing (another destination club anyone?), maybe it's not as farfetched as us old sticks-in-the-mud might think at first blush.  The future of golf will look quite different than the near past...

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