[Steve_ Shaffer]

Speaking of the famous "2 or 20" hole at Engineers, here it is:



From Ran's review:

Fourteenth hole (a),95 yards; Other famous short one shotters like the 7th at Pebble Beachand the 8th at Royal Troon rely on the wind to further their challenge. Not so with this little brute -the green complex is so heavily fortified and the putting surface so long and thin that the hole preys on the golfer’s mind long before he reaches it.While the severe penalty for failure may be out of proportion for those who (mistakenly) insist that golf be fair, this is a stand-alone unique hole in the history of golf course architecture. Perhaps the fact that golf was more of a match play game back in Strong’s day emboldened Strong to build such an all or nothing hole – whatever the reason, it is a shame more short, waterless holes aren’t built like it. In The American Golfer in 1923 J.S. Worthington wrote a series of articles entitled ËœThe Best Golf Holes I Have Played. Worthington was a world traveler who visited all the great courses in America and the United Kingdom and he started his discussion on great par-3′s with the 14th at Engineers: ‘More malediction, praise and lamentation has been bestowed upon this particular creation than any other short hole in existence.’

[Emile Bonfiglio]

As for par-3 holes under 100 yards, I have seen VERY few such holes on regulation 18-hole courses.  I think I've seen 1100 courses overall, and can only remember a handful that were really less than 100 yards from the back tee.

Tom, do we not see holes like that for a reason in particular? Appear to be not challenging from all tee boxes, developers aren't impressed with the yardage, etc?

If presented with the right green complex and if the routing worked would you suggest a sub 100 yard par 3?

[William_G]

As for par-3 holes under 100 yards, I have seen VERY few such holes on regulation 18-hole courses.  I think I've seen 1100 courses overall, and can only remember a handful that were really less than 100 yards from the back tee.

Tom, do we not see holes like that for a reason in particular? Appear to be not challenging from all tee boxes, developers aren't impressed with the yardage, etc?

If presented with the right green complex and if the routing worked would you suggest a sub 100 yard par 3?

Good question, and would'nt that type of set up help grow the game? and be fun? as well as fast?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

Inwood 

Wasn't it the shortest par 3 in US OPEN history ?

[Tom_Doak]

Tom Doak,

Inwood 

Wasn't it the shortest par 3 in US OPEN history ?

Patrick:

I did forget about the 10th hole at Inwood.  But I believe it is slightly over 100 yards -- 106 or 109 or something.  Brad Klein ought to know that one, if he's around.

The "two or twenty" hole at Engineers, however, is 90 or 95 yards, and it's quite a hole, with a narrow green that falls to the rear.

[Tom_Doak]

As for par-3 holes under 100 yards, I have seen VERY few such holes on regulation 18-hole courses.  I think I've seen 1100 courses overall, and can only remember a handful that were really less than 100 yards from the back tee.

Tom, do we not see holes like that for a reason in particular? Appear to be not challenging from all tee boxes, developers aren't impressed with the yardage, etc?

If presented with the right green complex and if the routing worked would you suggest a sub 100 yard par 3?

Emile:

Yes, you are right about the reasons.  I remarked here a couple of years ago that almost anytime I've suggested a short par-3 on a course -- even a hole of 130 or 140 yards -- the client has requested that it be a bit longer.  There are many clients who believe a hole under 150 yards will be seen by visitors as a "weakness".  That's one reason I was delighted that we were able to build the 7th hole at Barnbougle, which is something like 110 meters (120 yards).

I have not yet seen a location where I wanted to design a hole of less than 100 yards.  I think that I would look pretty hard to find a tee at 110 or 120 yards for such a hole -- because I think that including a hole of 90 yards would be seen by many as a gimmick, and I hate design features that are put in place just to attract attention, separate from their actual merits.  However, if someday I find a great hole that could only exist at 90 yards, I would indeed consider it.  Maybe I'll name it after you!  [Ask Tim Weiman about that.]

[Guy Nicholson]

Speaking of the 2 or 20 hole, I play a Strong muni here in Toronto named Lakeview, which hosted a couple of Canadian Opens between the wars. Its 17th hole is a little devil with some of the playing characteristics attributed to the famous hole at Engineers, including the exact same yardage, 95 yards, from the back tee.

The hole features a tiny elevated green where there is no good miss. A tee shot short leaves a very awkward chip from a near-vertical slope, and a tee shot long leaves a downhill chip, often from a thick grass bunker -- that invariably races away down to that awkward slope short of the green.

(The green is so small and the course so heavily used that there is an alternate "lower" green with its own tee; this hole plays at 90 degrees to the original. It plays up to 140 yards but is a poor substitute.)

Here's a diagram of the hole:

http://www.google.ca/imgres?q=lakeview+17th+hole+mississauga&um=1&hl=en&client=safari&rls=en&biw=2277&bih=1193&tbm=isch&tbnid=c1XKE_VJODF1PM:&imgrefurl=http://www.mississauga.ca/portal/discover/lakeviewvirtualtour&docid=AVRZElJ3e7hwiM&imgurl=http://www5.mississauga.ca/rec%252526parks/websites/golf/lakeview/hole/17.jpg&w=507&h=531&ei=a34fT-mPJuaV0QHcwcgH&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=369&vpy=136&dur=336&hovh=221&hovw=212&tx=104&ty=64&sig=112899582313001714152&page=1&tbnh=128&tbnw=135&start=0&ndsp=89&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0

And here's a GCA thread that includes a picture taken by our own Ryan Admussen. The 17th is the last photo:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=44416.0

That thread also includes a vintage photo that shows the hole under construction in 1921 (the caption calls it 16, but it has to be the hole in question), a couple of years after Engineers. The angle is about right to have been taken from the tee. Many of the slopes match Ryan's photo, with the exception of the back right side, where a more recent back-back-back tee has been built for the 18th hole. From there, play is across a corner of the 17th green, which I imagine is pretty rare on a highly trafficked muni. (Not that they ever put the blocks there, save for tournaments.)

[Chris Johnston]

I love short Par 3's.  Make for great drama.

[Philippe Binette]

The best par 3 at my former home course was 115 yards... but it would be just as tough from 99 yards, elevated, deep and narrow green, bunker right, steep bank left.. have fun

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom,

For some reason 99 yards sticks in my mind, as does Jones's 2-iron on 18.

My home course finished with a par 3 of under 100 until it was lengthened to 120 then 140.

I used to place the tees forward, back to the 100 yard mark and move the hole location forward just over the pond and it was one of the diciest shots you could imagine.  Finesse and smarts produced good scores since it was a two tier green the best shot was to hit it long, into the hill and back it up with spin and gravity rather than trying to force it in between the pond and the hole.

A great 18th hole with some wild finishes.

[Duncan Cheslett]

I was a 13 year old (47 years ago) caddie when I first heard the term "Goat Track".  I see the term has made it's way into the Urban Dictionary.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=goat%20track

I have to say that I'm more intrigued by the second definition of 'Goat Track'

 

[Emile Bonfiglio]

I was a 13 year old (47 years ago) caddie when I first heard the term "Goat Track".  I see the term has made it's way into the Urban Dictionary.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=goat%20track

I have to say that I'm more intrigued by the second definition of 'Goat Track'

 

Some of those synonyms would be interesting bunker names. "oh man it took me 3 stokes to get out of the Mooseknuckle on #14 at XYZ  Country Club"

[Emile Bonfiglio]

As for par-3 holes under 100 yards, I have seen VERY few such holes on regulation 18-hole courses.  I think I've seen 1100 courses overall, and can only remember a handful that were really less than 100 yards from the back tee.

Tom, do we not see holes like that for a reason in particular? Appear to be not challenging from all tee boxes, developers aren't impressed with the yardage, etc?

If presented with the right green complex and if the routing worked would you suggest a sub 100 yard par 3?

Emile:

However, if someday I find a great hole that could only exist at 90 yards, I would indeed consider it.  Maybe I'll name it after you!  [Ask Tim Weiman about that.]

So you're saying there's a chance..... I love this place!

[Ally Mcintosh]

There's a nice little 85 yarder over a chasm at Lamlash on Arran... fairly short course anyway...

On a very good full length course, the 16th at North-West in Donegal named "Fairy Dell" is certainly a good one. It plays 96 yards from the back:


North West 16th hole tee shot 18th Sept 2011 by Ally McIntosh, on Flickr

[Sean_A]

Tom,

We played the Wales Open four years ago and it looked like there were new holes at both 16 and 17. Both were par fours.
Either one would qualify as the narrowest hole I have ever played - and both sides of both were lined with unplayable lies.

Mike:

You caused me a brief panic ... but, my bad.  The two par-3 holes are at North Wales GC at Llandudno, just around the bay from Conwy.  I couldn't remember for sure which of them it was, but shouldn't have posted before I looked it up in The Confidential Guide.

I could not imagine that anyone in Wales would be dumb enough to change the two best holes on their course in order to lengthen it.

Tom

I am sure L.O. is more than 100 yards long, but its still a terrific hole. 

If anywhere would have an interesting sub-100 yarder it would be Painswick, but I don't believe it does.  The 5th has to be longer than 100 yards no?  If not, it sure plays longer. 

I am stumped!  I can't think of a par 3 under 100 yards let alone a great one. 

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

4th @ Ilfracombe is 87 yards I think, over a quarry, dont be short, its a firm sand iron.
Okehampton has a 90 yarder also, a drop hole as  I remember with water behind.
Cirencester used to have a 96 yard 8th hole but it got lost to a bypass. It was a great hole, nice rolls on the green.
Sandy Lodge had one, I am not sure if that has now been stretched.


Sean - You a right none of Painswick's threes dip below 114 and that 5th can be a good 8 iron!

There are plenty of 105s and 120s about that probably do play sub 100 at times, but I guess the real question was UNDER 100 from the tips. One of my recent courses (Stranahan) the very first hole was about 100 yards, I was releived when it got measured at 104 and not 99....if it was sub 100 its a talking point but perhaps not a good talking point, this is another of those areas that seem to matter for some and not others, but the 'others' are that minority camp.

[Mark Pearce]

I was going to mention Sandy Lodge, it's quite early in the round, perhaps the 3rd?

There's a drop shot par 3 at Rickmansworth that's only 83 yards, from recollection.  Almost impossible to hit a front pin because it's normally rock hard and slopes steeply front to back.  I recall frequently having to chip back uphill having missed long!

How long is the 16th at Wolf Run from the forward tees?  That's a pretty tricky par 3 even with justa  wedge in hand.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak ,

What natural physical properties would ave to exist in order for you to consider a very short par three ?

Is a tiny green a must, or is there room for a large green, segmented like many of CBM/SR/CB's "shorts" ?

[Ben Voelker]

I have played one regulation course with a 69 yard drop shot (!) par 3 in northeast Wisconsin, hole 8 at Peninsula State Park Golf Course.

http://www.peninsulagolf.org/golf/details

In recent years they have moved to artificial tees, but it used to have a standard grass tee set.  It isn't anything special architecturally, but there is OB long and scruff short.  I have seen 5's and 6's taken on the hole and it is a good bit of fun just because you never see anything like it.

[Chris Roselle]

There is one here in Philadelphia that comes to mind.  The 4th hole at Lu Lu CC (Donald Ross) plays 95 yards from the member tee.  It plays slightly uphill, over a quarry, to a green where you really can't see the putting surface.  A few years back I set it up as 85 yards for one of our Junior Championships and it was fun to watch the kids look at the card in amazment and try and figure out what type of shot to play.  That day there were more double bogeys than birdies on the hole...

[Jud_T]

Sean,

According to the website, the 5th at Painswick plays 114 from the back.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Isn't the 12th at The Dormie Club under 100 yds from the middle tees?

[Mike Hendren]

While hardly great, Rob Renault and Ron Garl designed an 81 yards (back tee) drop shot par three with an island green at River Run in Crossville, TN.   It's a puckerer. 

Perhaps Plateau correspondent Eric Smith can weigh in with a photograph. 

The course is a goat ranch.

Bogey

[John Nixon]

#16 at Wolf Run came immediately to my mind. The scorecard says it plays 95 from the whites, where I played it, but stretches as far as 150 from the waybacks. Pic here: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/wolfrun/

[Garland Bayley]

The hole at Sandelie that Emile based the thread on is a par three that was fit between two holes on the course. Since Tom sometimes uses par 3s to connect different holes he has found in his routing, I can imagine someday he might carve such a short par 3 between two holes.

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