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Paul OConnor

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Re: Courses with good caddie programs
« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2012, 10:31:21 AM »
I'll tell you one place where the caddies really tick me off: Pebble Beach!

First time I played there I show up with my lightweight single strap carry bag. When I came out of the pro shop, the caddy was transferring my clubs to another lightweight bag, so I asked "what are you doing?" And he says my bag is too heavy... Now I am really fussy about my bag and where I keep everything, so I asked him not to do it, but he said he had a bad back (with a smirk on his face... the guy was 5' 10" and built like a rock.) He got the minimum from me, something I NEVER do.

I had a similar situation at Bandon.  Granted, I had a lot of shit in my bag, umbrella, rainsuit, wanting to be fully prepared for whatever weather showed up.  I got to the first tee with my looper transferring my clubs to another bag.  I told him he could put everything back in my bag or I'd find someone else to carry it.  He put my stuff back.  About five minutes later, the starter quietly came up to me and THANKED me for the way in which I handled the situation.  Apparently even he had had enough of the roughshod tactics of the caddies.  I spent two days with the caddy, never mentioned the situation again, and had a great time.

Tim Martin

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Re: Courses with good caddie programs
« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2012, 10:35:42 AM »
I can`t really understand a caddie switching everything out for a single bag unless it is a monster. For two bags I will cut the guy some slack. When we carried two of those monster Burton leather bags back in the day there was no switching.

Mark Johnson

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Re: Courses with good caddie programs
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2012, 10:41:01 AM »
For those that desire a caddie to be a single, would you be willing to pay a minimum of 50% more for the luxury?  Say it's $60 a bag the fee for a single would be a minimum of $90.

I usually end up doing that via the Tip.

I am not opposed to doubles per say, however, only a top caddie should be carrying doubles.   Unfortunately when either a less experienced or less in shape caddy carries 2x, then it can actually slow down play.

Howard Riefs

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Re: Courses with good caddie programs
« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2012, 10:42:51 AM »
Unfortunately, sometimes it's a crap shoot on which caddie you get at a course/resort.

Last year at Sea Island, my first round was with a local kid who couldn't read a green or give accurate yardage.  And that was with me playing as a single.

The next day, I had a 20-year veteran who split his year looping at Sea Island and Whistling Straits.  Had to be one of the top five caddies I've ever had, and I requested him the next day when my wife also played.  

I've also had good experiences with the caddies at Pinehurst and Kiawah; I can't offer a blanket approval for Kiawah as I requested specific caddies for the rounds.
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: Courses with good caddie programs
« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2012, 10:47:50 AM »
I must inhabit another world.

I thought club caddies had died out in the 1930's. My eleven year old son sometimes works my bag (and push trolley), but at £10 a round even that is a little too expensive!

Will Peterson

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Re: Courses with good caddie programs
« Reply #30 on: January 23, 2012, 02:26:01 PM »
After one terrible experience, I was told that if I didn't give the caddie the entire suggested gratuity, I would have to meet with management to explain myself. 


care to share which course this was?  remind me never to take a caddie there.

Mark,

It was at Erin Hills.  The whole caddie experience there was bad.  First, there wasn't a difference in price for a single or double loop.  I said if there isn't a price break then I want a single, but was told that all caddies had to go out as doubles unless there was an odd number of players.  I don't mind the double, but I think each player should get a break on the price since he gets half the attention.  The caddie will still get more money than a single.  Then the caddie gave me the worst advice on a couple of critical shots, one leading to my only bogey of the day (I'm still upset about that three years later).  So after about three holes, I didn't ask for help, he spent most of the time with my father (he was stuggling that day and missing lots of fairways), and to top it off he got us lost.  We arrived at a par three, and I asked "are you sure this is the right hole, the card says it should be a long par 4?" He said, "no, pretty sure this is right." Just then a group came up a different path, and was not too happy to see us.  Turns out we were on the wrong hole.  We walked back to the previous green, then halfway back up the previous hole, then back to the green until luckily we found a grounds crew member to direct us to the next tee.  I figure it was 500-600 yards in extra walking.  When we finish, I took our clubs to the car while my dad settles up with the caddie.  My dad tells him that he felt there were some problems, and that he is only going to give him $75 for the two of us instead of the $100 suggested ($50 / player).  This was on top of the $35-40 each we paid in the shop.  He admitted to the problems, but said he needed the entire amount or else we had to talk to management.  My dad gave him the moeny because he wanted to leave since we had a two hour drive home.  I didn't find out until we were on the road or else I would have said something.  I sent an email to the course explaining what happened, but never got an answer.

Mark Johnson

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Re: Courses with good caddie programs
« Reply #31 on: January 23, 2012, 02:38:43 PM »
After one terrible experience, I was told that if I didn't give the caddie the entire suggested gratuity, I would have to meet with management to explain myself. 


care to share which course this was?  remind me never to take a caddie there.

Mark,

It was at Erin Hills.  The whole caddie experience there was bad.  First, there wasn't a difference in price for a single or double loop.  I said if there isn't a price break then I want a single, but was told that all caddies had to go out as doubles unless there was an odd number of players.  I don't mind the double, but I think each player should get a break on the price since he gets half the attention.  The caddie will still get more money than a single.  Then the caddie gave me the worst advice on a couple of critical shots, one leading to my only bogey of the day (I'm still upset about that three years later).  So after about three holes, I didn't ask for help, he spent most of the time with my father (he was stuggling that day and missing lots of fairways), and to top it off he got us lost.  We arrived at a par three, and I asked "are you sure this is the right hole, the card says it should be a long par 4?" He said, "no, pretty sure this is right." Just then a group came up a different path, and was not too happy to see us.  Turns out we were on the wrong hole.  We walked back to the previous green, then halfway back up the previous hole, then back to the green until luckily we found a grounds crew member to direct us to the next tee.  I figure it was 500-600 yards in extra walking.  When we finish, I took our clubs to the car while my dad settles up with the caddie.  My dad tells him that he felt there were some problems, and that he is only going to give him $75 for the two of us instead of the $100 suggested ($50 / player).  This was on top of the $35-40 each we paid in the shop.  He admitted to the problems, but said he needed the entire amount or else we had to talk to management.  My dad gave him the moeny because he wanted to leave since we had a two hour drive home.  I didn't find out until we were on the road or else I would have said something.  I sent an email to the course explaining what happened, but never got an answer.

wow.... just wow.

i almost guessed erin hills.   I got into a debate with the shop there once because I was going to carry my own bag.

They threatened to charge me because I didnt tell them in advance that I didnt want a caddy.   It was pretty clear that a pretty good portion of the caddy fee was not going to the caddy.

Bill Brightly

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Re: Courses with good caddie programs
« Reply #32 on: January 23, 2012, 03:14:28 PM »
I can`t really understand a caddie switching everything out for a single bag unless it is a monster. For two bags I will cut the guy some slack. When we carried two of those monster Burton leather bags back in the day there was no switching.

If you caddied with Burton bags like I did, you probably also did it at a time when no shorts were allowed. Blue jeans in 90+ weather!

Kris Shreiner

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Re: Courses with good caddie programs
« Reply #33 on: January 23, 2012, 05:04:57 PM »
As usual, a very interesting array of responses. From my experience, the quality of the program is usually in direct correlation to the level of commitment by the facility ownership/management, and the caliber-selection of a seasoned individual, or team, to lead the caddie staff.

Most outsource models, including Augusta, have a great disparity in actual caddie ability within the staff. The great majority of the folks hired by these entities to run them do not have the years of experience, and multiple skill sets required, to run a top-notch caddie program...no matter the elite level of the course. These outsource organizations offer outstanding lip-service about preserving the caddie tradition and the like, but in the main, it's all about the bag fee and conforming to a certain "caddie 101 by the numbers" approach. As long as there are no major complaints, let mediocrity reign and rake in that extortionate fee, sometimes up to $25.00 per bag of the caddie's fee!!!

As someone who caddied at Pebble Beach for over a decade, it is unfortunate that some caddies there, including veterans who should know the proper approach, sometimes take a cavalier attitude and don't ASK the playing guest if they may switch out their bag. That should NOT happen! I hate to say it, but that's what persists when an outsource model is your answer to running a caddie program.


Now, with all due respect to the many former caddies in the GCA ranks, and I also packed the Burton and leather trunks during my early years in the caddie ranks of that era...we can't think there is ANY COMPARISON in judging the demands on career-caddies' backs, that in the case of Pebble and Bandon(which has only been around since 1999), work YEAR ROUND in an often very harsh environment. Just having worked Summers, or Northern or Southern seasons, and some cameos doesn't stack up when comparing the wear and tear that a decades looper, year-round, racks up. The strap on the bag MUST be a quality SINGLE strap. It also is NOT just making due with one appendage of the awful double-strap efforts many players feel is no problem for a caddie, EVEN those carrying double. Wake up folks, those things ride the shoulder like crap, are poorly balanced and only ensure that you will have a grumpy caddie.

So long as the caddie asks the player about switching the bag, WELL before the round, when he is INTRODUCED to the player by the caddie manager/mentor on duty, things generally go well. There are also the "Linus-types," that INSIST on having THEIR bag carried. Think about that one fellas. So long as all your equipment and personals are on board..what DIFFERENCE does having YOUR bag make...other than enabling the caddie, who is DOING the job,  to be more comfortable while carrying. Where's the crime in that?

Some players seem to have difficulty with the one "one caddie working for two players" mantra. Players, especially most of those that frequent this site, should understand that you need to work WITH the caddie. I've rarely ever had a problem sharing a caddie. Take the proper attitude, use a partnership approach, and the round should go well.

It's GREAT when you can have a QUALITY one caddie-per-player dynamic, but that is rare. Good caddies don't grow on trees. They also need to earn a living, something many on this site seem to take exception too. It's easy to be cheap. Go play non-caddie golf. As we all know, many of the greatest courses, in the main are...thankfully, STILL caddie facilities.

To those that believe caddie golf is some dying vestige of yester-year, please read this next line slowly.


The more caddie golf suffers from a lack of "re-investment" from the game, the quicker golf will continue it's descent, worldwide.


When somethng has contributed more differencemakers and champions to the game than any other single source, by ANY MEASURE, and you neglect it...decay is sure to follow. Examine the golf landscape. How's that picture looking? From an American perspective, bear in mind that the PGA Tour and USGA are currently enjoying milk and honey days according to their own reports.

Old Memorial has a superb caddie staff. The best depth, save Pebble in the glory days of the 90s, that I've been around. Cypress Point is right up there at the top. While I'd like to rip off a short list of Philly's finest, I feel that while a number of our tracks have some fine caddies, the overall depth, particularly younger caddies, needs improvement. We're working to rectify that! I'm sure the Evans, Ouimet boosters in our gang have some strong youth-oriented caddie programs to note.

To me, the very best caddie programs have a total commitment from the facility top-to-bottom that they are about "caddie golf." That doesn't mean that every round must be with caddies, or that carts are out. Rather it means that players will take caddies regularly and embrace the opportunites it provides for both their game AND benefits for others that might otherwise have limited access to find and stay around the game long enough to play it for a lifetime. The finest also have diversity in: age groups, ethnicity and gender. The are very few that hit all these notes consistently. Like anything done well...commitment and craft are essential.

The more golf invests in the caddie dynamic, the richer the rewards for the game.

Cheers,
Kris 8)
« Last Edit: January 23, 2012, 06:24:31 PM by Kris Shreiner »
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

Dan Boerger

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Re: Courses with good caddie programs
« Reply #34 on: January 23, 2012, 05:37:46 PM »
Kris - Fantastic post! Well put and thanks for sharing your thoughts.
"Man should practice moderation in all things, including moderation."  Mark Twain

Simon Holt

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Re: Courses with good caddie programs
« Reply #35 on: January 23, 2012, 05:47:28 PM »
Kris- email or PM me your cell and what day/time you are getting to the PGA Show.  Here now.

S
2011 highlights- Royal Aberdeen, Loch Lomond, Moray Old, NGLA (always a pleasure), Muirfield Village, Saucon Valley, watching the new holes coming along at The Renaissance Club.

Paul Jones

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Re: Courses with good caddie programs
« Reply #36 on: January 23, 2012, 05:52:01 PM »
My taste are a little different for caddies, when I use a caddie I like to walk with and talk to them about the course and history (if any of the course).  Most of the time it is my first time playing a course and I can learn a lot.  I hate it when the caddie runs down the fairway and I do not know where to hit it and line of play. 

Then if I play another loop, my favorite is a place that offers cart and/or caddies.  I will ask for the caddie to drive the cart and I will ride and walk.  However, more places do not allow this for insurance reasons.
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

Mike Hendren

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Re: Courses with good caddie programs
« Reply #37 on: January 23, 2012, 06:02:03 PM »
I like the programs at Lehigh CC and Omaha CC where they have different levels of caddies and job descriptions.  For instance, at Lehigh a young man simply carried my bag - that was the deal, for a reasonable fee.  Perfect.

Bogey
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Sean_A

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Re: Courses with good caddie programs
« Reply #38 on: January 23, 2012, 06:14:07 PM »
I played somewhere where a caddie was taking my stuff out of the bag to be stored.  As I don't carry stuff I know I will not need I requested he put the stuff back.  I tell ya, its a bad way to start the day - finding someone fooling around with your stuff.  I don't mind if a caddie wants to slap on is own strap, but I really don't want my stuff taken out or transferred.  Its a guarantee that eventually stuff will go missing.  Caddie programs are much better off charging extra for bigger bags rather than switching bags.  

Kris - you must remember that for most folks a caddie is not a financial option.  Shit, in the UK I would guess the caddie per round of a club would cost more than the golf!  If I were to get caddies, I want young bag carriers rather than over-priced "experts".

My comments come with a warning that I have never had what I would call a very good caddie.  

Ciao  
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Kalen Braley

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Re: Courses with good caddie programs
« Reply #39 on: January 23, 2012, 06:16:32 PM »
Let me also chime in to say my caddie experience at Ballyneal was nothing short of 1st rate.

The kid hustled, never complained, and was Johnny on the spot with clubs, yardages, and even the occasional water bottle...terrific experience.

Mark Smolens

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Re: Courses with good caddie programs
« Reply #40 on: January 23, 2012, 06:20:00 PM »
Lots of great privates in Chicago with caddy programs. Ash's mention of Beverly is correct, but I think that the folks at nearby Ridge might argue that while their course is no match for Bev, their caddy program surely is. In my rounds at Butler I had one horrible caddy and one guy that crawled into my head and got me around that course in 79 glorious strokes (an accomplishment for this chop!). They used to have a guy named Billy at Evanston that could see two swings and pick clubs the rest of the day -- and even tho they double at Evanston I never once waited for Billy (he could hand you two clubs after your tee shot as he walked to your partner's ball and invariably one was correct). The kid I had at Ballyneal was a bag toter, but the Jerry Franklin experience at Pebble was sublime. . . you want jokes and stories, he had em; you want reads on putts AND chips, he'd give them to you.

It will be interesting to see if we get a response from Mr. Wagner about the experience at Erin Hills. I haven't been back since they told me I couldn't push my Sun Mountain around.

Michael George

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Re: Courses with good caddie programs
« Reply #41 on: January 23, 2012, 06:42:57 PM »

Calusa Pines has a wonderful caddie program.  Every time I have played there, I had a different caddie and enjoyed each of them.

The Dunes Club - not only was my caddie the best looking at the outing, she was spot on and was a joy to be around.  If only I would have listened to her more  ::)
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

David Kelly

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Re: Courses with good caddie programs
« Reply #42 on: January 23, 2012, 06:48:33 PM »
I like the programs at Lehigh CC and Omaha CC where they have different levels of caddies and job descriptions.  For instance, at Lehigh a young man simply carried my bag - that was the deal, for a reasonable fee.  Perfect.
 If I were to get caddies, I want young bag carriers rather than over-priced "experts". 

I agree. I don't mind and in fact I prefer bag carriers to caddies but I also don't mind paying for a good job.  What bugs me are courses (most of the time high-end resort courses) that charge you for a professional caddie but give you a bag carrier.

"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Scott Stearns

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Re: Courses with good caddie programs
« Reply #43 on: January 23, 2012, 06:49:00 PM »
does anybody know of a club with one of the nationally run caddie programs, whose program is superior (or even equal to) a good program run by a neighboring club.

I have gotten these nationally run programs at resorts, and never has the experience been anywhere close to my home club's program--an NYC area club with a "top third" caddie program.  regularly i get a mediocre loop and pay $50+ MORE than i do in NYC.

All i want from a caddie is a positive attitude, a desire to keep up, and for him to let me pull the club.  I'll figure out whether he can read a green, give me yardage, etc.  by the third tee, and i'll adjust my expectations accordingly.  

Howard Riefs

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Re: Courses with good caddie programs
« Reply #44 on: January 23, 2012, 06:59:07 PM »
The Dunes Club - not only was my caddie the best looking at the outing, she was spot on and was a joy to be around.  If only I would have listened to her more  ::)

So you were the lucky one who had that caddie...
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Courses with good caddie programs
« Reply #45 on: January 23, 2012, 07:02:24 PM »
We all have bad caddie stories.  Most courses that have caddies have both great one and Mediocre ones. My club, Four Steeams, has had a good caddie program for years. 
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Kris Shreiner

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Re: Courses with good caddie programs
« Reply #46 on: January 23, 2012, 07:03:48 PM »
Dan B.,

Cheers!


Sean,

I respect your take. I realize the the UK gang, devoid of much domestic context regarding caddie golf, frequently has been challenged in getting their arms around the whole caddie golf mantra. I'm of modest means compared to many on this site and certainly play the majority of my regular golf without caddies.That said, I take a caddie WHENEVER possible if a facility offers the option. My passion for caddie golf is obvious, it's how I found the game, like tens of thousands of others. To not utilize and contribute, to sustaining the caddie dynamic, when it has given me and the game so much, would be the height of hypocrisy.

I regret that you have not yet had the opportunity to enjoy the tremendous experience a QUALITY caddie can add to a round. Perhaps we can make that a reality one day soon. I'm fairly certain you would come away with a much deeper respect for the caddie dynamic and the contributions that they have made to golf throughout its history.

Paul Jones,

As a dear, old-school caddie buddie of mine who sadly is no longer with us would often remark, "Caddies should NEVER run on the golf course!" I detest caddies running on a course almost as much as I hate seeing litter on one. Swiftness can be accomplished WITHOUT running. Most four-caddie golf, with constant racing out ahead, is unnecessary, unless the hole is blind or the course is poorly designed. Light conditions, glare, and hazards all factor in, but quite often the tee area itself provides the best vantage point for caddies to see the tee shot, provided they have good eyesight and know how to mark a ball visually where it ends up. The only time I feel that a caddie should be seen scurrying on a track is doubling back to get a headcover they dropped! ;D"

Mark,

That Jerry is quite the card!

Ben,

I'm not at OM. I played there last year.


Kris 8)
« Last Edit: January 23, 2012, 07:33:58 PM by Kris Shreiner »
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

Bill Brightly

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Re: Courses with good caddie programs
« Reply #47 on: January 23, 2012, 07:22:06 PM »

Not only can it slow down play, in fact, it actually does.  In all circumstances.  All you have to do is have to wait to hit one time, and by definition, play has been slowed down.
[/quote]

And all it takes is one time when the caddy walks right to my ball in the woods because he was foecaddying... and all that wait time is more than forgiven

Colin Macqueen

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Re: Courses with good caddie programs
« Reply #48 on: January 23, 2012, 07:35:23 PM »
Bill,

"......he was foecaddying..."?  Ah yes!  That is ".... the caddy who walks right to my (opponents) ball in the woods" but doesn't find it!

Cheers Colin
"Golf, thou art a gentle sprite, I owe thee much"
The Hielander

Lawrence Largent

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Re: Courses with good caddie programs
« Reply #49 on: January 23, 2012, 10:22:37 PM »
Does anyone here on the board feel that Caddie fee's have gotten out of hand and they're just to expensive in my opinion.

I would love to hear what everyone else thinks.

Lawrence


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