[Josh Smith]

I really enjoy playing greens that slope away on the whole.  Would anyone design a course where fall away was the majority and not the minority.  Might be a nice way to add variety to a flat site.

What course would you say has the most greens that slope away currently?

[Mark Bourgeois]

Josh,

My vote would be St Andrews Beach.

Two of my favorite short 4s, the 14th at Ganton and the 3rd at Royal Melbourne West, have back-sloping greens. I like how, standing on the tee, my mindset to be as aggressive as possible is complicated by a green that amplifies aggression's consequences. The hole's length and green accessibility make me want to hit it as hard as possible, the green's slope makes me want to take a liiittle off. But how little?

Friends, when you depress one foot on the accelerator and the other on the brake, the result is smoke pouring from your ears.

[Adrian_Stiff]

I think an odd front to backer is okay in a course but if its at most holes then quite simply you would have a bankrupt course fairly quickly. Painswicks 2nd, 7th, 8th, 12th, 14th, 16th are front to back, thats the most in a single course I can think of and its probably a feature thats not positive to the course.

[Adam Clayman]

Josh, I'm under the impression Oakmont gets the nod. #lovetofindout

[Wade Whitehead]

Pinehurst #2 was like this but I haven't seen it since the redo.

WW

[Tom_Doak]

Josh:

The most I've ever done was [I'm pretty sure] at Beechtree.  [I don't think that's the reason it went bankrupt, but Adrian would probably count it in his statistics.]  The greens at #1, #3, #5, #7, #8, #10, #12, #15, #17, and #18 all had 50% of the green or more that fell away from the line of play.

Stonewall (North) has a bunch, too ... 1, 5, 11, 14, and 17.

At St. Andrews Beach it would be 1 [slightly], 3, 5, 8, 9, 12, and maybe 16.

[Adrian_Stiff]

What are you calling fall away greens?  I am thinking of a green with the highest point on the front, so the outlet drain would be coming out the back of the green.  Did  you do 10 of these on one course? I suspect we are confusing our definitions, if not then yes I will be saying its the reason it went bust!

[Alex Miller]

Rustic Canyon has them clearly at 1, 2, 3, 6, 12, and 18 with 14, 16, and 17 being hard to hold as well.

[Anthony Gray]

  

  I don't think they are prefers by anyone. My favorite is 14 at TOC. I would not want to see many on a course. Maybe a couple thumb prints on the back side of the green.

  Anthony

[Dick Kirkpatrick]

Building half the greens on a course with fall away greens is not good.

There are many better ways to defend old man par, if that is what the goal is.

[Sean_A]

I like fallaway greens and I can't say how folks could possibly think they are over-used.  When they are placed in context this becomes abundantly clear.  Lets take the Painswick example given.

#2 a short par 4, even so a little bit harsh.

#7 This is essentially a punchbowl green so now worries.

#8 A very short par 5 with a lip to the rear - no problem.

#12 A tough as nuts long par 3, but loads of space short of the green and the fallaway is VERY obvious - a very good hole.

#14 A drivable par 4 - no problem.

#16 A drivable par 4 - a very good hole. 

All must be taken in context and I think in the vast majority of cases at Painswick that the greens are not an issue and indeed make what are really straight forward holes a bit interesting. 

One of the best fallaway greens I know of is Pennard's 7th.  The 4th too is very good. 
 

Park Jr was a master of the front to backer and he used this technique at least a few times on every course of his I know. 

Ciao

[Bill_McBride]

Half the greens at the Crenshaw Cliffside course at Barton Creek (Austin, TX) fall away.  It's a great set of greens that are artfully draped over the existing terrain.   

[Mark_F]

Building half the greens on a course with fall away greens is not good.

Why not Dick?

[Anthony Gray]

Building half the greens on a course with fall away greens is not good.

Why not Dick?

.

  they don't hold the ball as well

[Mark_F]

They don't hold the ball as well

They do if you judge your approach correctly.

Presumably you don't like tabletop greens either?

[Dick Kirkpatrick]

Or greens that all slope from back to front?

Mark, I think you have more imagination than you are showing.

[Sam Morrow]

Half the greens at the Crenshaw Cliffside course at Barton Creek (Austin, TX) fall away.  It's a great set of greens that are artfully draped over the existing terrain.   

I wish more people could see that course so they can find out how natural those greens look.

[Tom_Doak]

What are you calling fall away greens?  I am thinking of a green with the highest point on the front, so the outlet drain would be coming out the back of the green.  Did  you do 10 of these on one course? I suspect we are confusing our definitions, if not then yes I will be saying its the reason it went bust!

Adrian:

I gave it my own definition above -- a green where 50% or more of the surface is falling away from the line of play.

We seldom build greens where the highest point is actually in front.  It's hard to make the surface drainage go around those.

[Tom_Doak]

Half the greens at the Crenshaw Cliffside course at Barton Creek (Austin, TX) fall away.  It's a great set of greens that are artfully draped over the existing terrain.   

I wish more people could see that course so they can find out how natural those greens look.

Sam / Bill:

I have never seen that course at Barton Creek but it's an excellent discussion point for this debate.

From what Bill and Ben have told me, there are a lot of greens that fall away, and a few half-blind or blind shots as well.  And the course has just never been very popular -- always overshadowed by the other courses at Barton Creek.  It is pretty much the last Coore and Crenshaw course you ever hear anyone talking about.

[Sam Morrow]

Half the greens at the Crenshaw Cliffside course at Barton Creek (Austin, TX) fall away.  It's a great set of greens that are artfully draped over the existing terrain.   

I wish more people could see that course so they can find out how natural those greens look.

Sam / Bill:

I have never seen that course at Barton Creek but it's an excellent discussion point for this debate.

From what Bill and Ben have told me, there are a lot of greens that fall away, and a few half-blind or blind shots as well.  And the course has just never been very popular -- always overshadowed by the other courses at Barton Creek.  It is pretty much the last Coore and Crenshaw course you ever hear anyone talking about.

I like the course more than the Fazios. I am a Fazio fan but at Barton Creek they are more style than substance I suppose. The only hole on C&C I don't like is a par 5 dogleg left with a huge tree in the landing area. I think it's probably a good hole but being a short hitter and usually being on the back tees it gives me fits. As for the greens it's amazing how they flow with the entire property.

[Anthony Gray]

They don't hold the ball as well

They do if you judge your approach correctly.

Presumably you don't like tabletop greens either?

  no Mark, just variety. 14 at TOC is one of my favorites.

[Mark Pearce]

At Elie the following greens are fall-away greens: 1, 6, 9, 10, 15.  There's an argument that 5 is as well, the front 2/3 of the green falls away sharply, before the back 1/3 rises a little.

[Michael Goldstein]

I'm a big fan of fall away greens. The last one that spun my wheels was 15 at Titirangi, it's epic

[Cristian]

Turfvaert in the Netherlands by Frank Pont has 13!

He explains in an earlier thread on this topic:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49475.25.html

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