Reform the R&A?

[Mark Chaplin]

One of our members constantly bangs on about reforming the R&A but if they need reform what should that look like?

Do we end up like the Football Association with 70 people sitting around a table representing the game at every level yet being unable to make a decision?

From my experience R&A members have to achieve a level of respect both professionally and in the game before being considered for membership. Yes of course there are seniors who've seen their best physical days but I also know young bright people from different fields who are either members or "in the book". There are also a good number of the best and brightest from around the globe who are members.

Remember that the Royal & Ancient Golf Club of St Andrews is a private members clubs and the R&A Ltd which runs golf is a separate legal entity with professional staff as well as club members.

My personal viewpoint is as soon as you have elections or guaranteed places at the table it all becomes far too political and self interest rules. I say stick.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Mark

Now would that person you were referring wanting the reform be this humble little guy, Melvyn?

Mark, the public just see the face of the R&A surface around the time of The Open and a few other occasions in a year. They do not see the behind the scenes farce that is the real face of the R&A.

Mark, political and self-interest already rules, it’s done so for well over a century. It is just that you and others have not seen it up close in its nasty incompetent close up form. In truth many are bereft of any sensible ideas and have allowed such things like the cart and distance aids to infect and water down a game that they should be protecting. Christ Mark, look at the mess regards stabilising the ball last century and the unbelievable farce they are making of not addressing technology be it by roll back the ball, club re-design or  any other methods. The aerial game is going further each year rendering many Holes not to mention courses pointless, lets not forget they are there to maintain the core part of the game, which IMHO they have done more to destroy than anyone else due to no backbone or forward thinking. These guys are bankrupt of ideas, we need people who understand the game, its traditions and who are willing to fight for them. Just looking at the record of The R&A they have failed on every count.

Reform is a must, but an open and full understand of the actual workings of The R&A would need to be studied first before options can or could be put forward.

I would rather not reform The R&A but they are hurting golf by their inactions, poor decisions and inability to see the reality of their current and past actions.

Melvyn

[Mark Chaplin]

Melvyn your opportunity to say what you'd do and you've just given us your usual "they stuffed up, it needs to be changed" but offer nothing in the form of ideas. You should join Her Majesties opposition.

It is not widely understood but until the Royal & Ancient Golf Club of St Andrews split the club in 2004 and made a golf club and the R&A running golf business each member was liable for the debts of the club. Had the ball or a club been rolled back and the manufacturer successfully sued the members may have had to pay from their own pockets. Ping threatened and say Callaway did and won $50m in damages each member would have had a bill of $20k, not many golfers would be happy with that!

[Bob_Huntley]

Melvyn,

As a member of the R&A I think you are full of it.

I remember well the threat of multi-million dollar law suits from Mr. Karsten and the thought that I might be liable for a hefty piece of change concentrated my mind wonderfully. The size of grooves on golf clubs became just a wee bit less important in my thinking.

It would seem to me that one should consider that the Club stood against the tide of improvements in equipment that the USGA endorsed for a goodly number of years. They balked at the semi-professionalism of the college apprentice system in the USA approved by the USGA. If you had your way some of your wishes would do as much harm to the economy as out-sourcing of jobs to cheaper climes. Think of the loss of electric golf carts, cement for cart paths, distance measuring devices, golf balls that go forever and the beer cart!  Horrors, it almost makes me think of some of the religious cults here in the States that want to ban sex as it might lead to dancing.   Golf is the best game known to man and quite frankly, it can be played as you desire and a great many of us do walk, carry our own bags and play by the rules but we should not rail against those that do not agree with you.

Best wishes.

Bob

[Melvyn Morrow]

Mark

You really do not read my post otherwise you would not make daft the comments you do. Did I not say
“Reform is a must, but an open and full understand of the actual workings of The R&A would need to be studied first before options can or could be put forward.”

As for the Club makers, the R&A allowed that situation arise through their mismanagement of the Game. They should have managed the situation correctly and not allowed the club maker(s) to threaten anything. To this day if I was the R&A, I would openly challenge the club makers and seek endorsement from all golfers. They make money out of the game so they have no right in dictating shit.  

As for R&A Membership, they should be like Lloyds of London, The Names have to face the ultimate penalty if things go wrong but until than they bask in the glory of being a Name. The R&A are just a Who’s Who of people who like others to think that they have made it. It a prestige thing, so if they want to take the risk and join the club great, but don’t moan if you have to then pay for their privilege. Hell Mark they are the Governing Body of the Game of Golf, who else is actually responsible and are you say that the R&A were sacred of losing money so hence they do not challenge squat. Makes a great statement in their defence.

It would be about time they finally took responsibility for their actions. No equipment manufacture should ever be allowed to blackmail the game of Golf or for that its Governing Body. Those who try should be boycotted by all golfers who care about the game.

You may not like me, my comments, opinions or warnings but that does not make them wrong.

Tell me how many GCA.com Members think it is right that manufacturers should have such power of the sport’s governing body?    

Melvyn

[Melvyn Morrow]

Bob

I am be full of whatever, but I do not need to join the R&A to prove my worth or boast about it. I do not need that social crutch to try to prove I am better than someone else, but it’s a free world and we all have a choice.
Members need to take responsibility for their actions or lack of it and not moan that they can’t afford to be sued – if that’s the case don’t join as there many another good club in St. Andrews.

As my father before me all we do is question the quality of care taken by our Governing Body and when it is so desperately wanting then people should have the right to voice their opinion.

If you play golf you play golf, if you want to play cart ball, mountain golf or whatever other fancy variation do so but just do the game and the real golfers the courtesy of calling your game what it is, which is not golf.

Melvyn

PS I am surprised at your low standards and making personal attacks too on an individual on a blog site just because they have a different opinion to you. Also I remember you called me another name in the past, which perhaps I should not be surprised as it clearly shows the quality of Members allowed into the R&A - goes some way in explaining why I am concerned with the lack of standards set by the R&A. 

[Mark Chaplin]

Melvyn what drivel, names at Lloyds make personal profits when things go well, not personal glory and personal losses when they do not. I can imagine you choking on your supper if members of a golfing club made a personal profit from running the Open Championship. 

[Melvyn Morrow]

Mark
 
Clearly you do not like me attaching the R&A, yet what I have said is the truth. The current members sorted it out so they would not be financially responsible for the actions of the R&A - what does that say about the people there?

Say what you want about me, but open your eyes man and take a look at how the game has suffered

Melvyn

[Bob_Huntley]

Bob

I am be full of whatever, but I do not need to join the R&A to prove my worth or boast about it. I do not need that social crutch to try to prove I am better than someone else, but it’s a free world and we all have a choice.Members need to take responsibility for their actions or lack of it and not moan that they can’t afford to be sued – if that’s the case don’t join as there many another good club in St. Andrews.

PS I am surprised at your low standards and making personal attacks too on an individual on a blog site just because they have a different opinion to you. Also I remember you called me another name in the past, which perhaps I should not be surprised as it clearly shows the quality of Members allowed into the R&A - goes some way in explaining why I am concerned with the lack of standards set by the R&A. 

Melvyn,

If I offended you by mentioning that some people play a game with which you are unfamiliar or abhor and you consider it an attack, I must apologize.

It would seem as though your animus to the R&A and its members is of long standing and for that I am sure you must have good reason. However, I would consider that your remarks about boasting of being a member of the R&A and using it a social crutch and being better than some else is quite silly; I would expect that from some Bolshie, not you.  When I opened my remarks I mentioned that I was a member as an input, not as a boast.

Like many others on this site I think you have much to offer but when it comes to attacks, you certainly have made your fair share.  

Bob    

[Adrian_Stiff]

Melvyn - One day you will open your mouth and someone will take your court for libel. You probably wont learn until you are writing out a cheque for £1000 and £12000 in fees, and I am sure you are not the sort to settle of court. Beware.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I find this thread a bit off base. The R&A had at best led the game to heights never seen before and at worst maintained the greatest game in the world throughout long history of the game. The R&A may have made a few moves over its history that did not fit with the conventional wisdom of the non members and media of the time. All in all is has been a tremendous organization which has guided the game admirably. I think of how much the world has changed as well as golf and yet the R&A has maintained a steady hand of guidance. Much like the architects that contribute here, we are fortunate to have a Member of the R&A to speak from knowledge on the subject and not speculation.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Well said Tiger.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Tiger

I am absolutely shocked by your comments, but they are yours and you have every right to them. I from my own knowledge of the organisation both personal, professional and through my research must disagree with you.
Failure to protect the game is there out in the open by allowing Non walking courses, carts, distance aids and statements that distance through the development of technology is not a problem.

By all means support a member of the R&A and ignore my actual comments.

Bob

I did not say that, play whatever variation of the game you wish but just don’t call it golf, please call it by the name more suitable, cart ball, mountain golf or as I said whatever. 

Adrian

Thank you for the warning but if I take my information from what I believe are facts and based upon truths then perhaps I feel I may have justifiable reasons for my comments.


As for GCA, the R&A and the current game of golf, I leave you to ponder, could you have helped saved many of the old great Holes and Courses (the works of Colt, Morris,  Fernie, Campbell, Hunter and many more) that are rapidly becoming unrecognised thanks to modification required due to a weak and ineffective governing body. Will we see in the future a small dedicated Team from say St Andrews, Prestwick  setting themselves up to find the lost courses that once inspired so many including the great names in golf, courses like TOC and Prestwick. Part of the future of the game is in your hands, will you, can you rise to the challenge, I will not be holding my breath.

I thought I had joined a Band of like minded Golfing nuts who cared for the traditions and traditional ways of the game, clearly I must have misunderstood.

Melvyn 

[Mark Chaplin]

Tiger your analysis is spot on. I apologise for starting the thread but hoped the chief distractor would give some ideas as to how he would see golf improved. Sadly it was just an opening for the usual rants which add nothing and do his cause no good.

Melvyn the setting up of an independent company says far more of the litigation society than the members of the club. I only disagree with your attacks as they are based on little and you offer nothing as a "solution" to issues you raise. Is your beef they didn't make OTM a hereditary member?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Mark

What the FUCK has this subject got to do with Old Tom. Can't win so you lower the tone by insults.

As for the R&A the designers on here do not want to upset them for fear of losing work, yet my comments are open and honest.

Melvyn

[Adrian_Stiff]

Melvyn - You are totally wrong about buggies and the detriment to the game. I have members the same as any golf club who are 70, 75 and 80 years old and they love their golf. Golf is a great walking game, it provides great physical excercise and great mental excercise it aids everyones flexibility also. You can enjoy golf at 80, perhaps even 90. Whilst many of us could easily play 36 holes years ago there is something that happens to us old that we cant beat...we get old.

So allow people to play with a cart, let them chose if they want to walk or ride. They may not get so much physical excercise but they get some and the swinging of the club and the mental aspects all help. If you banish the carts you take the golf away from some people. I have some that will walk nine holes but need a buggy for 18, a lot of our seniors play 3 or 4 times per week, they are lovely group that enjoy the game and the playing for a £1 and all the jibes that go with it.    Take the buggies away = less players.

You have a lot to give this site with your depth of history on the game, but you wont win friends with your continued rants we know your opinion and dont need reminding.

[Scott Stearns]

 Comparing a lloyd's Name to a member of a private club is insane.  Lloyd's names do it to make a profit.  "basking in glory" has nothing to do with writing insurance--these guys are trying to make a living.  R and A members who participate in running the Open and writing rules do it for their own reasons, but profit is not among them.  Most spend a fair amount of their own funds to volunteer.  The fact that this group does not wish to subject their spouses and children to financial ruin at the hands of twelve people, some of whom could be very like Melvyn Morrow, speaks to their good judgment.


Advances in equipment are not going away.  Carts are not going away.  Many of us like to jump in a cart sometimes--it allows us to get in 9 after work (remember work, Melvyn?)  It allows us to play with our 4 year old sons, who think they like driving the cart more than playing the game--and will realize they love golf right about the time we are too old to play with them.  

Can we go back to Architecture?  

And Bob, can i please have a drink in the clubhouse someday?  

[Melvyn Morrow]

Adrian

If a player needs the aid of a cart for mobility I feel it’s a good option (I have said this time after time), however any able bodied player using a cart should be penalised a few strokes if he takes a cart. The mere fact of carrying an setting down clubs Hole after Hole uses up energy that affect a golfers game. If you want carts then include a stroke penalty for this non loss of energy which will allows the rider to be fresher than the walk – that is if we have to use carts which I still know is alien to the game.

As for wanting friends, that is a non-issue, if people do not understand it is just my opinion then they are not tolerant enough to be classified as friends.

As for this site I am preparing my swan song in the form of an article for Ran, because I see a site as not committed to GCA, Ran or golf. This no doubt will be good news for many.

Scott
Lloyds members do it to be known as a Name and yes it’s for profit too. You talk as if I know zero about the R&A or Lloyds (my uncles were and one also being a Name at Lloyds) – whatever, if that’s your attitude so be it. As I said above, carts save energy, it reflects upon performance and should be acknowledge so – as I said above by a few strokes to try and balance the true score of a round. Any handicap gained by using a cart should be rendered null and void for that reason.

Pleased your son enjoys the cart but that is not the point, as for your swipe re working, sorry you have lost me there.

Carts may not be going away but then nor are cheat, it is simple as that whether you like it or not.

So you want access to the R&A Club House, good enough reason to be pro the R&A.

Melvyn   

[Scott Stearns]

deleted.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Scott

"Unsurprised the notion of work was lost on you Mel"  Scott seems you have something to say, so come spit it out and inform me what so special  that it is seems to get to you.

As for a drink in the R&A by all means be pro the R&A or a Member, you will see the history that my family help make from Allan Robertson. Hope you enjoy the experience.

Melvyn

[Anthony Gray]

  The point it mute, it will never happen .

[David_Tepper]

"As for this site I am preparing my swan song"

Talk about music to our ears!!!

[Bob_Huntley]

Sponsored unaccustomed visits of friends are no longer permitted; a great shame in my opinion as they were appreciated by all.

Bob

[Bill_McBride]

Sponsored unaccustomed visits of friends are no longer permitted; a great shame in my opinion as they were appreciated by all.

Bob

So sorry to hear that.   I really enjoyed my two visits.   Was a reason given?

[Terry Lavin]

"As for this site I am preparing my swan song"

Talk about music to our ears!!!

He's played this departing victim role before. As always, just press repeat.