[Jay Flemma]

I had an archie tell me in an interview that he thought that Strantz, Emmet, Ross and Doak were really good at the illusion or deception bunker, the one that looks close to the green, but isn't really.  Can anyone point to some good examples by Doak?

[Patrick Hodgdon]

If memory serves me the 3rd hole at CommonGround has a bunker like this. It can be seen in the 4th photo on this gallery: http://dev.brightbridge.net/RGD/commonground_golf_course/commonground_gallery/

Also I would mention Coore and Crenshaw use this feature extensively at Talking Stick North quite well on a number of holes.

[BCrosby]

I've never heard them referred to as 'illusion bunkers'. I've always heard the expression 'fore-shortening bunkers'.

C&C have a couple at Cuscowilla. DR build a couple of really good ones at Athens CC.

Bob

 

[Doug Wright]

See the thread on Ross par three bunkers.

[Tom_Doak]

Jay:

My associates' favorite illusion is to have a bunker out in front of the green backdropped by a bunker way in the distance ... sometimes even on another hole ... to throw off your depth perception completely.  The first one I can remember was on the first green at Beechtree, with a bunker from #8 in the background.  The sixth at Stone Eagle had a great one, with a fairway bunker 100 yards short of the green blending into the greenside bunker -- but they have messed that one up by letting desert plants in between the two break them up.  The 18th at Pacific Dunes (described on another thread) was another.  They are doing it all the time ... sometimes they don't even tell me.

[Ben Sims]

My associates' favorite illusion is to have a bunker out in front of the green backdropped by a bunker way in the distance ... sometimes even on another hole ... to throw off your depth perception completely. 

View from #17 tee to #5 green at Crystal Downs rings a bell.  Same concept?

[Tom_Doak]

Ben:

Yes, that's the most extreme example of the concept I've ever seen.  It took me a few years to notice it [mostly because of trees being in the way].  I've since noticed it on some other MacKenzie courses as well.

[Ben Sims]

Ben:

Yes, that's the most extreme example of the concept I've ever seen.  It took me a few years to notice it [mostly because of trees being in the way].  I've since noticed it on some other MacKenzie courses as well.

I think it makes the green look about 900yards away on #17.  I remember complaining that the bunker next to 5 was way too big.  Our host was kind enough not to shoot me down and wait for a teaching moment.   

Though depth perception confusion is very cool, my favorite illusion is to just hide ground completely.  Elevating foreground and background to hide ground in between surely isn't so novel that it can be attributed to anyone.  But some have done it more frequently and better than others.  In my opinion, shaping and placing a bunker in a position to hide the ground in front of a green is one of the cooler tricks around. 

[Bill_McBride]

Ben:

Yes, that's the most extreme example of the concept I've ever seen.  It took me a few years to notice it [mostly because of trees being in the way].  I've since noticed it on some other MacKenzie courses as well.

#4 at Cypress Point and #2 at the Valley Club are two other great examples of fairway and green side bunkers blending.   

[Adam Clayman]

  But some have done it more frequently and better than others.  In my opinion, shaping and placing a bunker in a position to hide the ground in front of a green is one of the cooler tricks around. 

Ben - Surely the "shaping" part of you statement is key? I ask, because I'd hate for others to think placing bunkers is arbitrary.

Proctor and Axland built a Hell bunker on 14 at Wild Horse. It's 80-90 yards short of the green. Under the right conditions, a person need only carry the top lip to have a ball run out onto the green. Now that's cool.

The 3rd at Rustic Canyon's is another favorite. To call these "Doak illusion bunkers" seems very odd.

[Tom_Doak]

Adam:  Doak is not part of the quotation marks in the original question.  Jay was just asking where I had built that kind of bunkers.

[Adam Clayman]

Oops, Thanks Tom.

Do you think you've built a lot of the type of bunkers, Jay has described?

I'm having a hard time coming up with one tht fits Jay's criteria. Maybe, and it's a big Maybe, the left side of BN's 8th. But since it's on a line few ever see, it's hardly that deceptive. It's worth challenging, because of the favorable kick, but deceptive? I don't know.

[Tom_Doak]

Oops, Thanks Tom.

Do you think you've built a lot of the type of bunkers, Jay has described?

A lot?  No, I don't really think I build those bunkers very often, or at least I don't do it specifically to cause illusion very often.

We probably do build deceptive bunkers more than a lot of other modern architects, just because we don't stick to the modern dictums of only building bunkers in the best players' landing areas, and because our bunkering is often in a style that allows for this.  A lot of architects just would not build a bunker 40 yards short of a green.  I would ... but I would do it to make certain players think twice about going for the green, not just to deceive them.

[Mike Hogan]

Would the bunker on Pac Dunes #17 qualify as an "illusion Bunker"?
It appears to be very close to the front of the green, when it is really 30-40 Yards short.
You don't see the seperation until you walk up to the green.

[Ben Sims]

The bunker with the most "illusive" aspects of Renaissance's that I've seen in awhile is the Principal's Nose on #1 at Old Macdonald.  In this particular case, I keep thinking that there is a good bit of room behind the bunker in between the green.  There's not.  It's pretty much hard by the front of the green.  I have no idea what was done visually to make it appear that there's room behind it. 

[Mike Hogan]

Ben,
 I agree about Old Mac #1.
Here are a couple of photos of the Principal's Nose.

[Kyle Harris]

Really, if you place the bunkers in the landscape where they fit, and then play golf through that landscape, the illusions will create themselves in the individual contexts of each golfer.

[astavrides]

Deception would be if he could make my rangefinder say the wrong number.

[David_Madison]

Ben,

It looks to me that the bunker on Old Mac #1 is separated from the green because there is a sliver of fairway on the left side just past the bunker in front of the green. Seeing that piece of fairway could then make you extrapolate that there must be more fairway going all the way across between the bunker and green. It also looks like the top of the principal's nose is closer to you than is the left side where you can see the fairway, which could make you think that there's even more room between the crown of the bunker and the green.

[Jay Flemma]

That's a really great Principal's Nose.  Wow that looks cool.

Great catch by Ben on 17 at Crystal Downs.  That is a superb golf hole and has great visual tricks.

Can someone please post a pic os what Tom's referring to at 18 at Pacific?  Thanks.

[Anthony Gray]

  The left side bunker on the fourth at Pac Dunes looks alot closer to the green than it is. Don't you think?

  Anthony

[JC Urbina]

Ben / Jay

That Principals Nose bunker is a Jonathan Reister Illusion bunker.  His creative juices were in full force that day.

[Greg Chambers]

I've seen these hazards used to great effect, on some really fun courses, not designed by a person named Doak...

[William_G]

  The left side bunker on the fourth at Pac Dunes looks alot closer to the green than it is. Don't you think?

  Anthony

+1

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Jim yes they were for appears to be quite a snoze/nose on that man/hole. lol

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