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Doug Ralston

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Comping and course ratings?
« on: January 20, 2012, 09:12:50 AM »
On another website, the subject of golf courses giving free rounds to raters came up, and I wondered if this might have a favorable outcome for the course? I realize everyone goes to this job trying to be objective, but if you get to play a legendary course for free and already know it has a reputation, is it likely to help you kind of 'see what you expect'? I am certain quite a few here have been in this position, so you must have thought about it?

Doug
Where is everybody? Where is Tommy N? Where is John K? Where is Jay F? What has happened here? Has my absence caused this chaos? I'm sorry. All my rowdy friends have settled down ......... somewhere else!

C. Squier

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Re: Comping and course ratings?
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2012, 09:24:59 AM »
A free round here and there has absolutely no material meaning when compared to the money spent rating a good amount of courses all around the country/world in a year. You don't have to be rich to rate, but you'd better not be down to your last $150 either.

Add dues to the club(s) the rater may belong to (that they play less often as a result) and you quickly realize it isn't the gravy train everyone on the outside makes it out to be.

Just one guy's opinion.

Jud_T

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Re: Comping and course ratings?
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2012, 09:49:32 AM »
Make raters pay based on their rating.  Have 'em pay more for good ratings and less for lousy ratings.  Same price at each club;  i.e. $25/rating point.  So  $250 for a 10 and $0 for a 0.  This could be an all day rate. Any club that offered anything different or extra would be banned from the ratings as would any rater who accepted anything different or extra (and blackballed on Twitter).  Then you'd get an accurate picture and not have to worry about the influence of freebies, advertising or tournaments...  ;D
« Last Edit: January 20, 2012, 09:58:54 AM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Comping and course ratings?
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2012, 10:21:57 AM »
I have gotten a ton of free golf over the years and it does temper my opinion and comments.  Come on people, there are industries set up just to study and then implement the psychological effects of swag.  It works.

A funny thing happened just yesterday.  I stopped at a tavern for a bit of brunch and a beer on my way home.  Mistakenly a bit too close to home because a fellow patron recognized me and came over to chat.  Seems that his common law step dad had worked for my family for over thirty years before he retired.  As I told him, I would not be where I am today without his family's contributions.  We are talking dads, uncles, cousins and even today a grandchild back in the shop.  Truly the core of the earth dying breed working family. 

The conversation turned to helping out his drinking buddy's step son get a job.  You know how it goes, fine, I'll give it a look, yadda, yadda, yadda...until it happened.  He picked up my tab of $12.30. 

I left the bar, went directly to my phone, told my secretary to be ready for this kid and bring him directly to me.  $12.30 was all it took.  You see, it is not the value of the comp, it is the situation. 

Doug,

How about a link to that site?

Kalen Braley

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Re: Comping and course ratings?
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2012, 10:33:21 AM »
I'm with John on this one.

The entire country works like this and it goes straight to the top in the form of legal bribery, aka lobbying.

If it didn't work, between lobbying and sales jobs, we wouldn't be spending 10s of billions of dollars each year doing it...

don_bartlett

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Re: Comping and course ratings?
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2012, 10:47:05 AM »
First misconception on the subject is that it is a job - raters for any publication are not employees but rather volunteers.  If you are into rating for free golf, then you shouldn't be doing it. 


Jud_T

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Re: Comping and course ratings?
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2012, 10:58:55 AM »
yes it's been discussed before, but it never gets old.   From Robert Parker's (The Wine Advocate) section on Standards:

Independence: For me... it is imperative to pay my own way. Even more important is to refuse all advertising – from any source. This guarantees total independence.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2012, 11:03:42 AM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Bill McKinley

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Re: Comping and course ratings?
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2012, 11:01:53 AM »
Either way, the club's policy, whatever it is, should be known and made clear to the rater before they play.  That way they know what they're getting into and what to expect.  We send all raters a club policies letter before they play and it usually is never a problem.  From my experience, things can get a little dicey when the rater wants to bring out a friend that's not a rater or something like that.  But, comping the rater is something that I don't think is a problem.
2016 Highlights:  Streamsong Blue (3/17); Streamsong Red (3/17); Charles River Club (5/16); The Country Club - Brookline (5/17); Myopia Hunt Club (5/17); Fishers Island Club (5/18); Aronomink GC (10/16); Pine Valley GC (10/17); Somerset Hills CC (10/18)

Mark Pearce

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Re: Comping and course ratings?
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2012, 11:05:44 AM »
yes it's been discussed before, but it never gets old.   From Robert Parker's (The Wine Advocate) section on Standards:

Independence: For me... it is imperative to pay my own way. Even more important is to refuse all advertising – from any source. This guarantees total independence.
I always smile when I see that Parker quote.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Ed Oden

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Re: Comping and course ratings?
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2012, 11:06:53 AM »
As a rater, I do not believe that I am influenced by comps.  At the end of the day, it is just a complete non-factor to me.  However, even if I am mistaken and a comped green fee does in some subconscious way have an effect on me, I am 100% certain that it pales in comparison to other factors that REALLY DO INFLUENCE ME.  Those other influences are the ones I have to guard against, not a comp.  I find it humorous that so much attention is paid to comps when they are, in my opinion, among the least worry.

Jud_T

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Re: Comping and course ratings?
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2012, 11:11:33 AM »
Does one view a woman who charges for sex the same as one who gives it away for free?
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

C. Squier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Comping and course ratings?
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2012, 11:20:08 AM »
yes it's been discussed before, but it never gets old.   From Robert Parker's (The Wine Advocate) section on Standards:

Independence: For me... it is imperative to pay my own way. Even more important is to refuse all advertising – from any source. This guarantees total independence.

Do you really think Parker writes Screaming Eagle a $750 check to open a bottle???

Parker gets comped every time he visits a winery. The same as a rater may get comped.

Parker doesn't get paid on his way out the door, no different than how a rater doesn't leave with more cash than he came with.

Your example is perfect, though I'm sure it contradicts the meaning behind your posting.

C. Squier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Comping and course ratings?
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2012, 11:40:09 AM »
Does one view a woman who charges for sex the same as one who gives it away for free?

So, if I host a client for dinner, I should forevermore view them as less moral/ethical than a client who insists on going Dutch?

Your club comps raters. Have you brought your distaste for that practice up with them? Or even asked why they do it? Is your opinion of your head pro (who makes the decision to comp) as low as those who receive the comp?

Jud_T

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Re: Comping and course ratings?
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2012, 11:43:32 AM »
CS,

the only thing surprising here is your oversized indignation about how getting comped could possibly influence you.  Apparently my club isn't giving away enough free golf as it's still considered underrated by a vast majority here...
« Last Edit: January 20, 2012, 11:46:33 AM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Chris Johnston

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Re: Comping and course ratings?
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2012, 11:54:57 AM »
Whether one does or does not comp a rater is up to the owner or the club.  It's their choice.

   We welcome raters and choose to charge them, most of the time as my guest.  Has that impacted our rating?  Who knows.  The ones who have come out are, universally, a good lot and appreciate the game of golf.  We don't treat them any different than anyone else.

Question really is:  Do ratings really matter?  Do they sell memberships?  

Do we spend time worrying about ratings?  Nope.

If there is a quid pro quo, is that a conflict of interest?  Yep.   The mere possibility that a comp could impact a rating creates the conflict.  Maybe the magazines should "require" a rater pay at least a minimum amount to add purity to the system.  A simple fix imo.

I joined Sand Hills in 1995, before it was rated, probably before it was discovered.  Would a rating have mattered to me?  Nope.  I really liked the people, the feel of the place, and the course.  Most early members were just guys who loved golf.


C. Squier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Comping and course ratings?
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2012, 11:56:01 AM »
CS,

the only thing surprising here is your oversized indignation about how getting comped could possibly influence you.  Apparently my club isn't giving away enough free golf as it's still considered underrated by a vast majority here...

What I wouldn't give to see a thread discussing the bloated opinion of courses by their dues paying members.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Comping and course ratings?
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2012, 11:59:10 AM »


What I wouldn't give to see a thread discussing the bloated opinion of courses by their dues paying members.


Point taken.  But the fact that we PAY DUES adds weight to our opinion. i.e. we vote with our wallets....
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Comping and course ratings?
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2012, 12:00:11 PM »
If a rater wants to be taken completely seriously, he must be like a regular Joe.  The folks in power shouldn't know he is a rater and I think part of that is paying for the golf.   It doesn't matter if a guy is not influenced, what matters is the perception and the perception is certainly that free golf and gifts may compromise one's opinion.  That shouldn't be a surprise to any rater.  The more time has gone by the more I think mags have it wrong with their rating systems.  They should be much more selective with their raters and pay their way.  

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Joel_Stewart

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Re: Comping and course ratings?
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2012, 12:02:00 PM »
As a rater, I do not believe that I am influenced by comps.  At the end of the day, it is just a complete non-factor to me.  

I agree, it's a non issue to me.  In fact the highest rated courses I have, I had to pay.

In terms of Parker, there is no way he has tasted 10,000 wines and paid.  I read once he gets something like 10 bottles per day sent to his home.  He has so many wines he doesn't rate California wine anymore, it's passed off to one of his employees.

I read this as well;


"Parker has stated very clearly, both in The Wine Advocate and his books, that his advice stands on high ethical standards; independence and impartiality constitute his two most important values, he says. By abiding by these standards, he says, he seeks to guarantee that his valuations will be pro-consumer, and not pro-industry.[citation needed]
Several published sources offer accounts that may call Parker's independence and impartiality into question.
In her book Emperor of Wine, Elin McCoy describes a positive article Parker wrote in the second issue of The Baltimore/Washington Wine Advocate about MacArthur Liquors and its manager, Addy Bassin. That article fails to mention that Mr. Bassin sold Parker a list of MacArthur's customers for use in mailing out the first, free issue of the Advocate, a potential conflict of interest.[38]
In issue 164 of The Wine Advocate, Parker wrote a long article about Jeffrey Davies, a wine trader based in Bordeaux. As Hanna Agostini and Marie-Françoise Guichard point out in their book Robert Parker, Anatomy of a Myth, what Parker failed to mention was that he tasted wines with Davies, not by himself—yet Parker has repeatedly stated that an impartial wine critic should taste wines alone.[39] Davies advised Parker not to publish his comments on the 2004 Bordeaux in issue 164, as Parker had planned, because they would have suffered from their comparison with the much better 2003 and 2005. Parker followed Davies' advice, and published those comments in the following issue instead.
The second issue of The Baltimore/Washington Wine Advocate stated "Robert Parker has no interest, direct or indirect, financial or any other, in importing, distributing or selling wines."[40] In the early 1990s, Parker invested in an Oregon vineyard with his brother-in-law: Les Beaux-Frères ("The Brothers-in-Law"). He promised never to review any wines produced there in The Wine Advocate.[41]
Two of Parker’s tasters had, or still have, an interest in the distribution or the sale of wines, according to published accounts.
Until January 1, 2007, David Schildknecht spent half of his time importing and distributing wines, and the other half critiquing wine for The Wine Advocate. Today he is a full-time critic for The Wine Advocate.[42]
Kevin Zraly is the vice-president of Smith and Wollensky Restaurants, a group of 17 restaurants with a substantial wine list.[43]
Robert Parker's goddaughter, Marie Raynaud, is the daughter of Alain Raynaud—the co-owner of Château la Croix-de-Gay in Pomerol and former owner of Château Quinault in Saint-Émilion. Mr. Raynaud was the President of the Union des Grands Crus de Bordeaux, an advocacy group for the Grand Crus of Bordeaux, between 1994 and 2000.[44]
Yale University professor, econometrician, and lawyer Ian Ayres wrote about Robert Parker's conflict with Orley Ashenfelter, the publisher of Liquid Assets: The International Guide to Fine Wines,[45] in his book Super Crunchers. Ashenfelter devised a formula for predicting wine quality based on weather data such as rainfall and temperature that Parker characterized as "ludicrous and absurd." Ashenfelter was able to show that Parker's initial ratings of vintages had been biased upward, requiring him to revise his rankings downward more often than not. Says Ayres, "Both the wine dealers and writers have a vested interest in maintaining their informational monopoly on the quality of wine." Ayres pointed out that Ashenfelter's predictions have proven to be remarkably accurate, and claimed the wine critics' "predictions now correspond much more closely to [Ashenfelter's] simple equation results."[46]"
[edit]

Kalen Braley

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Re: Comping and course ratings?
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2012, 12:03:24 PM »
I don't think this thread needs to turn nasty.....

...this concept is a basic construct of how human society formed.  I scratch your back, you scratch mine...its as simple as that.

Even back when mankind was tribal and living in small isolated groups, the community members that got the most privleges and the most favors, were the ones who contributed most to the tribe.  Whether it be by fetching the water in bad weather, chasing down big game to feed multiple members, or being a battle tested defender of the community, this is basic human nature 101.

We are the same people today, and to deny such seems fairly naive.

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Comping and course ratings?
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2012, 12:05:23 PM »
CS,

the only thing surprising here is your oversized indignation about how getting comped could possibly influence you.  Apparently my club isn't giving away enough free golf as it's still considered underrated by a vast majority here...

What I wouldn't give to see a thread discussing the bloated opinion of courses by their dues paying members.

Clint,

That is best seen in the rating of Wolf Run in Golfweek.  Golfweek allows raters to vote on courses where they are a member.  I've never played for free at Wolf Run and don't think it deserves to be anywhere near the top 100.  Take out the votes of the rater members and their friends and Golfweek won't think so either.

Jud_T

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Re: Comping and course ratings?
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2012, 12:07:47 PM »
OK maybe Parker isn't the best example, and he has a very detailed writeup about all the vagaries involved that I didn't want to post here.  Actually met him at a fancy tasting dinner once and he came off as a dick.  A classic example is the Golfweek Residential Course leaflet they send out.  In the middle is their ranking of the 100 Best Residential Courses.  The entire rest of the supplement is made up of ads from many of the courses listed touting their rankings.  Not sure this is what the phrase "circle jerk" was originally intended for, but it certainly applies.  There's the rub.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2012, 12:12:46 PM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

C. Squier

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Re: Comping and course ratings?
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2012, 12:13:16 PM »


What I wouldn't give to see a thread discussing the bloated opinion of courses by their dues paying members.


Point taken.  But the fact that we PAY DUES adds weight to our opinion. i.e. we vote with our wallets....

So what is it? A higher rating when comped or higher rating when paying?  Wouldn't one be just as likely to say "I've spent $4000 just to get to and play Pebble, it better be good."

I can possibly concede that a NEW rater may get a rush out of a comp in their first few ratings. But after a handful of paying/comped experiences, if you haven't realized that the ratings are anonymous AND dollar cost averaged you're not only a bad rater, but an idiot.

Time away from work, telling your spouse you're heading off to the middle of nowhere to play golf and realizing you rarely play your own golf courses factor in far sooner than how much a round will cost.

Michael George

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Re: Comping and course ratings?
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2012, 12:25:04 PM »

CJ:

Unfortunately, I think ratings and pga tour stops matter to many avid, but uninformed, golfers.  I don't think they matter to anyone on this board, but I am constantly surprised by avid golfers telling me that certain courses are the best in the country because of a high ranking or a pga tour stop. 

For instance, the average avid golfer in northeast Ohio thinks that Firestone South (Bridgestone tour stop) is the best course in northeast Ohio.  While I do think it is a great test of golf and very fair, I would play Brookside, Kirtland, Country Club and Canterbury over it any day. However, Firestone gets a ton of revenue from corporate outings that want to entertain clients on the "famed' course.   

Likewise with Double Eagle, it has this reputation being in the top 100 that gets it a lot of national members, but it is not even in my top 10 in the State of Ohio and all of the aforementioned are better.

Sad but true.

 
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

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