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Ed Oden

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Re: Donald Ross' Cross-Bunkered Par-3s
« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2012, 02:02:24 PM »
There is no doubt that particular bunkering scheme was a common one used by Ross on his par-3s, but I'd be interested to know how many of those modern holes had the scheme originally and how many were added later by other architects, especially architects specializing in Ross restorations. Based on the prototypical look of most of those bunkers my guess is the majority of these courses have been 'restored' in the last decade.

Where is Salisbury?

Tom,

The Country Club of Salisbury is in Salisbury, North Carolina, which is about 40 miles northeast of Charlotte.   http://www.ccofsalisbury.com/viewCustomPage.aspx?id=1

Carolina Golf Club in Charlotte presents a good case in point about the "restoration" of cross bunkers.  Mark's original post above shows par 3 number 3 (232 yds.) at Carolina.  The cross bunker was restored in Kris Spence's 2008 restoration/renvovation.  Immediately prior to Kris's work there were no bunkers on this hole.  However, Ross's original 1929 drawing of the course shows a cross bunker in this location.  The same is true on no. 9 at Carolina, also a long par 3 (237 yds.).  Immediately prior to the renovation there was no cross bunker on this hole, but the Ross drawing showed a cross bunker and Kris put one in at that location durning his work.  Possibly Ed Oden could post a photo of that hole as well.  The best I can do is refer you to Ed's photo tour of the entire course.  http://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/sets/72157608575550343/show/
  For comparison of the Ross drawing and Spence's restoration plan, see Ed's initial post in his tread on Compliation of Routing Maps, Plans and Architectural Drawings (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43053.0.html), keeping in mind that no. 3 today was number 8 on the Ross plan, while no. 9 today was no. 5 on the Ross plan.  So, in the Carolina GC situation the cross bunkers were not there on 3 and 9 prior to the Spence restoration/renovation, but were added by Spence to reflect what was shown on the original Ross plan.  My understanding, second (plus) hand, is that many of the original Ross bunkers on the course were eliminated durning WWII as a maintenance cost-saving measure.

Tom:

Adding to Carl's post, at Carolina the cross bunkers on the 3rd and 9th holes had been lost over the years, probably more from an expense standpoint than anything else.  But they were in Ross' original drawings and Kris Spence restored them as part of his work several years ago.  Here are pictures of the restored 9th at Carolina:

From the tee it appears virtually like a greenside hazard...


But from this angle you can see that it is really quite a bit short of the green...


And from behind the green, you can again see that the bunker is well short...


As for some of the other holes noted in this thread, I know that the short cross bunkers on the 3rd hole at Charlotte and the 9th hole at Biltmore Forest were similarly on Ross' original plans, lost over time and reinstated as part of recent restorations.  The short right bunker at Mountain Ridge #14 is on Ross' 1929 plan which Pat Mucci provided for the map thread.  I don't know the story with Mimosa Hills #9 and #13 or Sedgefield #3.  But it is my understanding that Kris Spence had Ross' drawings for both of those courses and use them as the basis for his work.  So I am pretty sure these examples were Ross originals as well.  As for #17 at Salisbury, I have no idea whether it is original or not.  But they do have Ross' drawings in their clubhouse.  I'll try to take a look at them the next time I am there.  In any event, I think it is pretty clear that the majority of these par 3 cross bunkers were originally conceived by Ross rather than an intermediary architect, even though their current iteration may be a product of a restorationist's work.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2012, 02:07:10 PM by Ed Oden »

Ed Oden

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Re: Donald Ross' Cross-Bunkered Par-3s
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2012, 02:16:32 PM »
Is that a Ross redan? Now that is atypical. I've never seen him design a redan green -- are there others?

Mark, Brad Klein has suggested that the 9th at Biltmore Forest is the only redan Ross ever designed... http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,23252.msg425539.html#msg425539

George Freeman

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Re: Donald Ross' Cross-Bunkered Par-3s
« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2012, 02:26:20 PM »
Couple more from Ran's photos of French Lick:



Mayhugh is my hero!!

"I love creating great golf courses.  I love shaping earth...it's a canvas." - Donald J. Trump

BCrosby

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Re: Donald Ross' Cross-Bunkered Par-3s
« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2012, 02:39:00 PM »
DR designed a X bunker on the par 3 5th at Athens CC. It was taken out in the '50's when the wife of the Green Chair complained that it was "unfair". It has not been restored.

DR also had X bunkers on three par 4's at ACC, only one of which still exists. If we are counting his top-shot bunkers, which were also X bunkers, none of the three sets he designed existed until a recent Forse restoration. Ron restored one of them. 

I would guess that many more of DR's X bunkers have been removed than new ones created.

Bob

Howard Riefs

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Re: Donald Ross' Cross-Bunkered Par-3s
« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2012, 03:59:45 PM »
Are (or were) there any examples at Pinehurst?

Possibly #18 on No. 1?

Course map from scorecard: http://www.pinehurst.com/pdf/PinehurstNo1Scorecard.pdf
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Michael Goldstein

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Re: Donald Ross' Cross-Bunkered Par-3s
« Reply #30 on: January 22, 2012, 11:22:48 PM »
How about all those tee's next to one another in Ed Odens photograph from Sedgefield!

Clearly a result of the slope handicapping system?

And doesn't that kinda defeat the purpose of the cross bunkers? 
@Pure_Golf

Dean DiBerardino

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Re: Donald Ross' Cross-Bunkered Par-3s
« Reply #31 on: January 23, 2012, 12:52:37 PM »
Some others....

#14 at Mill Creek Park North in Boardman, OH
# 7 at Mill Creek Park South in Boardman, OH
#11 at Wilmington Municipal in Wilmington, NC
#13 & #16 at Pine Needles in Southern Pines, NC
#3 at Springfield CC in Springfield, OH
#6 & #9 at Westbrook CC in Mansfield, OH

RSLivingston_III

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Re: Donald Ross' Cross-Bunkered Par-3s
« Reply #32 on: January 23, 2012, 06:19:16 PM »
I am a bit bothered by the description of these strategic bunkers as cross bunkers. Ross did describe how much of his bunkering was designed to yield challenges to the various skill levels of golfers.
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

Sean_A

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Re: Donald Ross' Cross-Bunkered Par-3s
« Reply #33 on: January 23, 2012, 06:29:20 PM »
Ed

Thanks for the pix of Carolina's 9th.  I tend to think this sort of deception bunkering works bets when the hole plays a bit uphill.  The downhill version maybe prettier, but the effect is better uphill.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Kris Spence

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Re: Donald Ross' Cross-Bunkered Par-3s
« Reply #34 on: January 24, 2012, 02:20:27 PM »
This is the par 3 6th at Jefferson Lakeside CC in Richmond Va, the restoration project removed an added center approach bunker and restored the 5 bunkers in the photo based on bunker remnants from the original course.  The hole is 155 to 165 yards  and the cross bunkers are positioned 20 and 25 yards short of the front edge.


Tim Nugent

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Re: Donald Ross' Cross-Bunkered Par-3s
« Reply #35 on: January 24, 2012, 02:37:07 PM »
It's a wonder that these have survived the many Greens Chairmen, Supers and women who can't get it airborne.  I wonder what will happen to all these "restored" bunkers when budgets get tight again.  Will the past repeat itself?
Especially since bunkers seem to be the favorite whipping boy.
Coasting is a downhill process

Mark Saltzman

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Re: Donald Ross' Cross-Bunkered Par-3s
« Reply #36 on: January 28, 2012, 11:53:35 AM »
Hole 6 at Plainfield Country Club with commentary by restoring architect Gil Hanse:

As a shortish par 3, this is a neat hole and it was another litmus test for our renovation. There had been two little bunkers that weren't really in play and had been removed. But Ross had put them to serve as a visual trick to add a little doubt and confusion for the players. That the club let us restore them said a lot about their commitment to what we were trying to do, so they deserve a lot of credit.








Dean DiBerardino

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Re: Donald Ross' Cross-Bunkered Par-3s
« Reply #37 on: February 01, 2012, 03:37:56 PM »
Another example would be the original ninth hole at Shaker Heights Country Club just outside of Cleveland. It had two cross bunkers AND a creek that ran along the entire left side of the hole. The cross bunkers as well as a most of the creek that ran down the left side of the hole near the green were gone by 1952 according to an image from HistoricAerials.com.

Actually, many of the interesting bunkers that were part of the original Shaker Heights course are gone and have been replaced by trees. As nice as Shaker Heights is today, the entire golf course looked much more interesting in its original form.

Below are a few images from the earlier version of the hole, compliments of Shaker Heights member Alan Fuente, as well as a current image from Google Earth.








archie_struthers

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Re: Donald Ross' Cross-Bunkered Par-3s
« Reply #38 on: February 02, 2012, 12:17:29 PM »
 ;D ;) 8)

Some of our Philly / Jersey guys will recognize a twin to the French Lick pictures at Riverton CC in south jersey.  It is a shortish par 3 of only about 140 yards from the tips....I'll see if Joe Bausch has a photo  ...Riverton is a Donald Ross ...

Rob Peterson

Re: Donald Ross' Cross-Bunkered Par-3s
« Reply #39 on: February 04, 2012, 05:34:30 PM »
Over the past year or so, I have played about a dozen Donald Ross golf courses.  I noticed about half of them have long cross-bunkered par-3s.

Is this a Ross template? I don't have Brad's book with me and cannot recall if he talks about this.

Did Ross ever write about this type of par-3? What is the purpose of the cross-bunker? Do any other architects do this often?

Of the holes I have seen, the cross-bunkers were used quite differently, but in all cases, they were at least 15 yards short of the green. 

Any info and any other examples?


A couple of the par 3's at Beverly fit this bill too.  Particularly the long 3rd.  Questionably the 6th too although it is pretty short and plays downhill.

Chris Hans

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Re: Donald Ross' Cross-Bunkered Par-3s
« Reply #40 on: February 04, 2012, 11:07:29 PM »
VCC ..
« Last Edit: February 04, 2012, 11:18:31 PM by Chris Hans »

Chris Hans

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Re: Donald Ross' Cross-Bunkered Par-3s
« Reply #41 on: February 04, 2012, 11:16:34 PM »



Ronald Montesano

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Re: Donald Ross' Cross-Bunkered Par-3s
« Reply #42 on: February 05, 2012, 08:29:48 AM »
Dean D.~That's a crying shame.

Chris H.~Where is VCC? Or, from where are your photos?
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Chris Hans

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Re: Donald Ross' Cross-Bunkered Par-3s
« Reply #43 on: February 05, 2012, 09:37:36 AM »
Vesper Country Club just north and west of Boston.  This is the seventeenth, an uphill par 3 that's 210 yds from the back tee.  The pictures are taken from the hole's forward tee about halfway through the restoration we completed there in the Fall of 2009.  The cross bunker on the right is a good 35 yards from the center of the green.  Also all the trees you see behind the green as well as all of the trees to the right of the green and all of the trees to the left of the green minus a couple specimen oaks have since been removed.  This leaves the golfer, from the back tees, with a great view of the rolling topography of the eighteenth fairway.
Definitely worthy of its new-found top 100 ranking.

Tom Roewer

Re: Donald Ross' Cross-Bunkered Par-3s
« Reply #44 on: February 06, 2012, 10:13:03 AM »
The original 3rd hole at Granville Golf Course was about 230 from the back tee and had a cross bunker some fifty yards short of green all at the same level

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