Which Architect Got This Concept Right?

[Bryan Izatt]

Or, did all three?  Or two of the three?

The first two holes are short par 4's.  The third one is a short par 5. 

The first two are on relatively level ground.  The third hole starts off level and then rises up a significant hill to to the green. 

The bunkers demand some decision making off the tee, if played off the appropriate tees for your length.  The reward on the first one is an more receptive green angle from the right option on the first one - Hole A.  The reward on the second one - Hole B is a more receptive green angle from the left option.  The third one - Hole C - provides a shorter second and a better angle on a reachable par 5, if you can successfuly negotiate the left hand carry.

Hole A



Hole B



Hole C

[Bruce Hardie]

How short is B?

Depending on the carry:roll ratio, taking on the left hand side is the same as attacking the green by the looks.

[Bill_McBride]

Hole B is nominated for Worst Cart Path Ever. 

A looks like a mini Channel Hole.  What's the distance to carry to the right fairway?   Doesn't look particularly heroic if it's a short par 4. 

[Mark Saltzman]

I love C -- bunker placement on the entire hole is awesome.

[Tim Gavrich]

I've played hole A and have never tried to carry the bunkers, as far as I can recall.  Because the wider, right fairway sits lower, if you hit it down there you will have a partially obscured view of the green.  I profiled the course a while ago but I'll keep it anonymous for the sake of the discussion.  Here are the pictures I have of that hole:

[Brent Hutto]

A and especially B look Mike Strantz-ish to me. I think B would be an awesome hole to play.

I think I may recognize Hole C and if it's the one I'm thinking of...I love it. Heck, I like it even if it's not the one I think...

[Kirk Gill]

Thanks, Tim, for those pics of hole A. In looking at the aerial, my though was that with my tendency to hit a fade, I'd always be trying for the right-hand bit of fairway, but the elevation change makes that a less obvious choice, and from the tee the left fairway doesn't look as narrow somehow as it does from above.

On hole C, I'd love to see the ground-level shots as well, as again for my shot shape (combined with my lack of distance) I'd likely go right off the tee also!

[Jason Topp]

C looks the most interesting to me but it is tough to tell from aerials. 

The quality of A and B depend on the details - firmness of fairway and green, weather conditions for the course, whether the green orientation and contours make the agressive play a real advantage, whether the carry distances are in a range to pose difficult questions, whether the widths of the two alternative fairway targets are exactly correct to make the decision difficult and whether the severity of the hazards is correct - too easy leaves no decision and too difficult forces the conservative approach.

Even if all of those details are right for me, they may be completely wrong for someone who is more or less accurate, carries the ball farther or shorter, or has a better or worse short game. 

If the details are wrong, these types of holes present no decision whatsoever to most players.  I have not seen very many that I thought were great holes.

[Bryan Izatt]

How short is B?

Depending on the carry:roll ratio, taking on the left hand side is the same as attacking the green by the looks.

About 305 yards from the back tee.  Certainly driveable for the real long hitter.  But, little room for error.

Hole A is around 360 yards, so a short par 4, but not driveable.

[Bryan Izatt]

I have ground level pictures of Hole C that I can post tonight.

No guesses on the architects?  Tim, can you hold off on A.

[Brent Hutto]

Strantz, Strantz, Coore/Crenshaw

[Greg Holland]

I have ground level pictures of Hole C that I can post tonight.

No guesses on the architects?  Tim, can you hold off on A.

I believe A is in Myrtle Beach, and was designed by a GCA regular.  Some time, less can be more?

[Bill Brightly]

I don't know any of the holes, but the problem I have with Hole B is that the sharpness of the dogleg means there is no real advantge in taking out driver. For every 10 extra yards longer you hit, you get maybe 3 yards closer to the pin. So depending on the actual length of the hole, I am going to hit rescue or 3 wood, a club I know won't reach the first bunker on the right. I just want a full short iron from the fairway the green, so I am not risking driver to reduce a 7-iron to an 8 or 9. The angle to the green appears fine from anywhere, there seems to be no advanatge to going long right.

Hole A is a classic split fairway with an obvious better angle if you can hit the smaller left side. I love that option, especially since the shorter hitters must go right in any event.

Hole C is a par 5, so it is hard to compare, but I love the risk reward decision you have to make on the tee.

[Garland Bayley]

I love C -- bunker placement on the entire hole is awesome.

+1

[Brent Hutto]

I have ground level pictures of Hole C that I can post tonight.

No guesses on the architects?  Tim, can you hold off on A.

I believe A is in Myrtle Beach, and was designed by a GCA regular.  Some time, less can be more?

Oops, now when you put it that way I know Hole A myself. Nice catch. I knew it looked familiar.

[Mike Hendren]

I believe C is a significatly uphill very short three shotter by C&C.  Could be wrong. The fairway bunker cluster works extremely well with the hole's distance.  One really needs all the yardage he can muster off the tee to reach this green in two, which the short distance almost insists you do.  Accordingly, the bunkers must be challenged, though not necessarily carried. 

A thought: perhaps the fairway bottle could be inverted so both the short and long hitter are given the option to favor the left hand side of the fairway from which the green is much  more accessible.  That change would require the big hitter to carry the larger middle bunker while giving the shorter hitter the option to feed the ball into the generous fairway short of  the outside bunker which would then be on the left. As is, it makes little sense for the shorter driver to try to squeeze a tee shot into the narrow slot to gain the best line for the second.  Invert the bunker cluster and the drive  becomes strategic for both players.  In reality, that's picking a nit as the hole works pretty well as.  

The drive set up well for me since I knew I could reach the larger fairway bunker in middle but not the outside bunker on the right side.  Accordingly, I confidently hit a cut off the center bunker that finished in the garden short/right of the cluster.  From there the green was marginally reachable with another cut which fit well with orientation of the green.

Bogey (or in this instance, Par)

[Bryan Izatt]

Here are the pictures of hole C:

[Bryan Izatt]

As some already know, hole A is by our own esteemed Jeff Brauer at Wild Wing (Avocet) in Myrtle Beach.  Played it for the first, and only time, a couple of days ago.

How can you not love a guy who designs heart shaped greens? 

On my one play, I hit driver up the left side figuring it must be a better angle and shorter shot for the second, considering the risk involved.  Actually I think the green runs away from that side.  My shot actually ran through the green.  Seems possible that the right side off the tee, although slightly blind on the second, might provide a more receptive angle to the green.

[Bryan Izatt]

Hole C is indeed C&C at Sugarloaf Mountain just northwest of Orlando. 

Parenthetical thought - I don't know how they stay in business; they were offering a promo on MLK day at $29.95, cart included, and this is prime season.  And, a second parenthetical thought for the Melvins out there - the cart battery died on the 18th tee.  Anybody who has been there knows the joy of trying to lug a cart bag up the 18th hill.  Apparently they are so thinly staffed they may not even have noticed they were short a cart in the tent.  Such a shame for such a nice course.

My only reservation about the hole is that even playing as a 445 yard par 5, reaching it in two is an unlikely occurence for me given the severe uphill nature (about 45 feet tee to green) of the hole.  Most likely it would almost always be best for me to play off to the right off the tee.

[Bryan Izatt]

Hole B is nominated for Worst Cart Path Ever. 

.............................................................

In real life it's not so egregious.  It sits a little below the fairway and is just hardpack native sand, so it looks not too unnatural in the surroundings.

[Bryan Izatt]

I think I'll give one more day on Hole B.  The architect is a world famous modern architect.

Brent,

I think the hole is a fun, but frustrating play.  I keep thinking I can beat it - it's only a little over 300 yards.  But, it beats me more often than I'd like to remember.

Bill,

For most of us mere mortals, the driver is absolutely the wrong play, but it's tough to stand on that tee and not want to pull out the big stick and have a go.  Going long up the right is the wrong play.  The geen is shallow from that side and is also severely undulating.  Hitting it and sticking from there, even with a wedge in hand, is a dicey proposition.  The only good angle for the second shot is from the left side of the fairway, short of the angled bunker.  It provides a shot down the length of the green.  But, don't tug it a bit, the water is close.

For a short hole, this is as penal as it gets.

[Sean_A]

Bryan

What interests me about C is the lay of the land.  It looks like if one can't drive past the small left-hand bunker the land leaks right.  However, after the bunker and then heading up the steep hill, the land seems to lean left - making bouncing one up to the green quite difficult. 

So far as your question goes, I really don't know.  Aerials are never enough info for me to get a good feeling on a hole.

Ciao

[Garland Bayley]

Would B be Pete Dye?

[Bill Brightly]

This is how I see hole B. Just tell me the distance to the center of these two circles. The "top" of the fairway is just a way to walk to the green.

[Mark Saltzman]

I think B looks like Nicklaus.