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Niall C

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Minimalism in the UK
« on: January 17, 2012, 02:16:12 PM »
Are there any minimalist courses in the UK ? I'm referring to the recent minimalist movement rather than any remaining ancient courses originally laid out with 18 stakes in a single afternoon (or whatever the legend is).

For instance, is Renaissance a minimalist course ? If so why ?

Niall

David_Tepper

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Re: Minimalism in the UK
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2012, 02:56:22 PM »
Niall -

Belmullet/Carne in Ireland is probably one.

DT 

Chris DeNigris

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Re: Minimalism in the UK
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2012, 04:30:24 PM »
Machrihanish Dunes- someday this course will get a lot of love.

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Minimalism in the UK
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2012, 06:37:34 AM »
Minimalism in Britain and Ireland usually occurs as a function of site restraints (e.g. Mach Dunes, Heythrop Park) or of budget (e.g. Carne).

It occurs naturally with many architects (but not all) when a site is excellent.

It occurs less naturally when the site is less excellent and may as well be reduced to who builds containment mounding versus who doesn’t…. or who flattens irregularities versus who doesn’t… Can’t think of many modern minimalist builds on a poorish site with no site restraints and a biggish budget… It would be nice to see a good one pulled off…

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Minimalism in the UK
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2012, 09:05:38 AM »
Minimalism is probably close to impossible now in the south of the UK. There are a few great sites that would not need much work but getting permission to golf there would be the near impossible bit.

West of Southerdown theres a huge track of great stuff.

Just North of Weston Super Mare there is a headland that would be awesome.

Probably still a few pockets of heathland in Surrey too.

Lots in Scotland I expect.

Probably a lot of golf courses have been built at the lower end just building tees and greens, so minimal by definition.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Minimalism in the UK
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2012, 09:08:43 AM »
Niall:

I think The Renaissance Club is an example of a minimalist course.  We had to clear a lot of trees, and had to swap soil on a few holes where it didn't drain well enough for the greens, so it's not "18 stakes on a Sunday afternoon" ... but the only places where we made cuts of fills of over a meter were to bury the stumps in three locations.

Machrihanish Dunes is certainly minimalist, from what I've heard.

The other big projects of recent years [Kingsbarns and Castle Stuart] are not what I would call minimalist; both were highly graded to achieve certain design features and goals.


Mark_Rowlinson

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Re: Minimalism in the UK
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2012, 10:51:40 AM »
I've no experience of Renaissance or Mac Dunes. I can't think of a modern minimalist course of any consequence further south. There are certainly minimalist courses, including pretty well all the low green fee pay and play facilities with which I am familiar. Thankfully, being a member of a private club, I don't need to play them any more, but they have an important place: they have provided an opportunity for beginners and those who cannot justify members' club annual fees to play golf. They were a much needed addition to the stock of courses in this part of England.

Of course, not all of the pay and play courses are minimalist, and not all are bad, but there are some really awful minimalist courses among them.

Mark Chaplin

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Re: Minimalism in the UK
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2012, 11:44:11 AM »
Chris - Mach Dunes my get love but it's very remote even for the home market, if their costs are low then it should succeed. If their borrowings and costs are high then they could be in for a hard time.

There are plenty of minimalist clubs is the UK!
Cave Nil Vino

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Minimalism in the UK
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2012, 01:46:38 PM »
Tom,

Renaissance is the only course of yours that I have played and I thoroughly enjoyed. I don't know what I was expecting but it struck me as being a (very good) traditional like layout with its parallel holes and a sense of scale like traditional courses and unlike a lot of modern courses. In that way it seemed more modest and I don't mean that as any slight. More like "feel the quality rather than the width" if you excuse the pun. Apart from the "features" ie. tees, greens and bunkers, you could well believe it simply had been laid out.

Question - does minimalist necessarily equate to minimal earth shifted in construction or is there more to it than that ?

Adrian

How would you describe your courses ?

Ally

See my question above, is it purely about money and environmental constraints, for instance could a course NOT be minimalist built with a small budget and restricted in the amount of earth shifted.

Niall

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Minimalism in the UK
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2012, 04:00:32 PM »
Question - does minimalist necessarily equate to minimal earth shifted in construction or is there more to it than that ?

See my question above, is it purely about money and environmental constraints, for instance could a course NOT be minimalist built with a small budget and restricted in the amount of earth shifted.

Niall

Niall,

I believe minimalism is not doing more than you have to in the quest to get the best course. It's about looking for ways to leave areas undisturbed, looking for routings that work with the land rather than against it. In that way, it can be measured in earth shifted but only against a different approach on the same site... (i.e. 50,000 m3 on one site is very little but on a perfectly natural excellent site may be quite a lot).

A course with a small budget or site constraints can definitely be mimalist but to me that's often about having a style forced on you rather than a conscious effort... Sometimes not though... Depends on who is building it...

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Minimalism in the UK
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2012, 04:53:32 PM »
Niall - My courses could be deemed minimal if you look at the word minimal as being low cost, but I guess we dont mean that in the context of what we are talking about here. My first few involved greens, tees and as little soil movement as possible, perhaps my forst five or six could have been the same sort of soil movements that would have been involved in the 1920s-30s period. Maybe in time they will be considered good golf courses, most of them were built for sub $750,000. More recently as soon as I get on site I basically move the top soil to one side and completely recontour the lot, but I am importing inert landfill so getting paid by each lorry load. That fill material can be shaped into a golf terrain. The prices have dropped off a bit now but we were getting $100 for every load and most days we got over 100 loads (record is 323 loads), you need 1 girl to count the lorries and 1 shaper and if you get enough fill you ccan build your course for zero and bank a million.
You can shape your land in a way that the land can look like a series of disused quarries, plant gorse, scrub pine, bit of thorn and 99% of people wont know its not old.
As for my philosophy on golf I look to produce golf courses suitable for as many people to play as possible as a general rule, I am very aware of what things cost and what revenue you can expect to achieve and the margins and the profits for the client. I am proud that none of my courses have ever gone bankrupt. I would want a course that I was involved with to be at least good enough to stage a county championship, I am not against island greens or bringing water into play, I like greens that defend themselves without sand and contours that sometimes help and sometimes dont, I try and keep a mixture of hazards on one side of the green rather than both and mainly look to have preferred sides of the fairway as the best side, but I dont really have strong rules that would preclude anything. I know i make mistakes based on $$$ and time restraints. I like a lot of the courses we see on this site, I have not seen a TD course though from pictures I like them, there are some modern architects and some older ones I think are crap but I will only tell you that in March when we are on our third pint. If you go to www.commandsport.com there is a little player that shows one of my courses
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Minimalism in the UK
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2012, 05:08:03 PM »
Niall -

I have not seen the finished product, but based on the "work in progress" I did see, my guess is Jon Wiggett's Brahan course near Dingwall is an example of minimalism. Based on Ally Mcintosh's parameters, the minimalism there is likely a function of a modest budget.

We will see for ourselves in May. ;)

DT

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Minimalism in the UK
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2012, 01:57:15 PM »
Gents

Thats the beauty of this site !

Adrian

I look forward to the "third pint".

DT

Looking forward to our "clan gathering" in the better weather !

Niall

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