[Sean_A]

Sean,

Could you, Brian or Jon provide us with those figures such that we could determine, in our own minds, the merits or flaws in those dodgy figures.

Thanks.

Pat

I will let you sift through newspapers to come up with the info.

Now you're contending that newspaper articles are the authority, the ultimate, accurate source ?

There isn't much point in me doing because you obviously don't believe me. 

You indicated that you don't trust dogs and humans, but, you want me to trust you when all of your information isn't source material, but, third party hearsay ? ?  ?

You seem to insist the politicians weren't duped when four years after gaining planning permission Trump has only just managed to open a golf course. 

Doesn't anyone read with a modicum of comprehension anymore ?
YOU indicated that every politician who approved the project was duped.
That they were so dumb, or that Trump was so clever that they had no clue with respect to the fact base, the concept and the ability to reason.
Do you really believe that ? 

Now we have Trump using windmills as a an excuse not to carry his plan forward. 

What's wrong with that as a negotiating tactic ?

The guy was obviously selling a plan and politicians bought it.  Why not?  A guy claims he will jack up the economy and the government basically doesn't have to do anything - its a dream come true. 

So, a developer just says things, without any supporting documentation/studies and everyone votes for the project ?

That's not the way it works in my neighborhood.

All that is required is to over-turn local decision-making, and ride rough shod over the very reasons the land was designated SSSI.

Was Trump's project the only project to ever go through this process ?

If not, how did the others turn out ? 

Governments have done far worse for less grandiose promises.  I am of the opinion that the government's handling of this situation was at least as much about putting out the message that Scotland is open for business as it was about this particular project.

So, developers just have to make promises and their projects get approved ?

That's an unusual approval process by any stretch.

What other developers submitted projects, made promises and got the approvals ?
Which developers were rejected ?

Spangles

No, I am sure Trump will continue to add bits and pieces to his resort.  What I don't and never did believe, is that his project will have anything close to the economic impact originally claimed on anything remotely close to the original time line.  Its was pie in the sky then and its pie in the sky now.  I have said all along that I would have loved to see the government publish (if a study was conducted) independent figures of what Trump's project could produce.  I do recall one economist in Scotland saying it was a load of bunk, but I don't know if he was independent. 

Before making any judgement, shouldn't you wait until Brian produces the figures Trump submitted in the approval process ?
Shouldn't you have the facts before rendering judgement ?
   

Patrick

Thus far, you have shown a distinct lack of knowledge about this subject. Please do some research to at least get a grip on the basics of planning regulations.  Your last post makes it quite clear you don't have a clue.

Ciao 

[Mark Chaplin]

How can a golf course, hotel and 1500 houses support 6000 jobs? Or do they mean 6000 people building houses for a few months and disappearing?

From my experience golf is one of the better ways of providing for and protecting the environment in sensitive areas.

[Mark Woodger]

i have heard (via third party know knows him) that he really just wanted the golf course and didn't really care to much about completing the rest of the project. I will eat my hat if this project has the benefits that were claimed when permission was sought and unfortunately granted.

just to be clear i have no issue with a course being built there, i just have an issue with the environmental impact of the course being built (the dunes) and the promise of grand hotels/develpments that will almost certainly not deliver. I hope i am wrong, i really do because it would be wonderful if this did bring all the benefits that were presented at the outset.

[David_Tepper]

http://www.scotsman.com/news/scottish-news/top-stories/donald-trump-plays-first-shot-at-controversial-aberdeenshire-golf-course-1-2402515

160 jobs created so far, only 5,840 more to go!

[Jon Wiggett]

http://www.scotsman.com/news/scottish-news/top-stories/donald-trump-plays-first-shot-at-controversial-aberdeenshire-golf-course-1-2402515

160 jobs created so far, only 5,840 more to go!

Just what I thought when I heard it David. Also, it seems tht they are also having problems with dune stability!

Jon

[Tony_Muldoon]

The Film a Brief Review.

First off this is not a Shock Jock piece but a meandering following of events. There are no cheap comic effects to make points but points do get made.  A major weakness of this as a historical film is the action gets picked up well down the line. Once the project got the go ahead the camera’s started to roll.  The shenanigans with the planning permission, the debate on Economic benefits and Environmental issues are dealt with in short retrospective pieces.  The ‘story’ is clearly told but it doesn’t’ always make for the most riveting 2 hours.  

There are 3 protagonists. Donal Trump and his team, the Director who becomes part of the action and the small group of locals living adjacent to the course.  Naturally the former is the most Charismatic and we judge him on his own words as he presents them in a series of Press Conferences.  We do see how local dignitaries at functions fawn and how the red carpet is laid out for him. The media reporting, as shown in the film, also seems to be kept on line. Most disturbingly is how the Local Police force becomes an adjunct of the Trump organisation.

The big issues being argued in retrospect are just flatly denied by Trump in press conferences and how you feel about these will not be changed by the film. We do see large areas of land bulldozed for fairways but it’s not clear if these are in the areas of SSI or not.

The references to Local Hero don’t seem to make their point but the heart and most interesting bits of the film do revolve around the local’s.  I suspect that the filmmaker became a little too close to the residents for true objectivity and the shots of Mr Forbes and his property are limited; even so he doesn’t come across as the most sympathetic character. The film focuses on a near neighbour who  is perhaps the most articulate, but I could have done with a few minutes less of hands fiddling with cigarettes. The film would have been better shorter and focussing on the compelling stuff.

From the beginning Trumps puts out the message that these people live like “pigs”, and at  a reception one local dignitary describes them as fiercer than their dogs as he cosy’s up to Trump. You ask yourself why Trump puts this message out, why does he need to do it? Slowly it becomes clear, The ground crew and the Police start to harass these neighbours.  Their water is suddenly cut off and after a week the Director goes to see the Irish Manager of the construciotn crew, who admits he is fully aware of the problem and with a chilling smirk says “it’s being investigated” and he can’t say when it might be resolved.

These locals include Pensioners. The Police and other authorities are called for help, but none is forthcoming.  The Police are monitoring the Locals and when one morning Forbes finds flags marking out a line across what he considers his property, he removes them and is charged with theft. Another has his fence torn down and the boundary line remarked with cheap Chesnutt Paling. He is then sent an extortionate bill for half the cost of the new fence. The bill comes not from the Trump organisation but their solicitor.  Whilst talking on camera with one of the group, the Director is arrested (never charged) in a thuggish manner that is genuinely unsettling and IMO the officer should be in the Dock for an unprovoked assault.  Although some talk of vandalism to the course is brushed over, it seems the arms of the law are truly to protect the rich and powerful.

You ask yourself why are these people acting in this manner. Would Trump be shocked?  Yet even after bunds, which were never on the approved plans, are put up to hide those houses he still bangs on about these “animals”.  

The film is weaker for not following up on the land disputes and it does leave several questions unanswered.

Finally does the film change anything? Yes. Perhaps I was naive before seeing this and I did indicate on here that I would seek to play the course, but now I’m sure I won’t. I won’t be giving any of my money to the Trump Organisation.   The film may prove a thorn in his side should he ever try to develop a similar project in these isles.  However one is also left with the impression that when he flies into town, people in power will be only too ready to welcome him and whatever he says will be believed by those who should know better.

[Niall C]

Tony

Thanks for your thoughts. I look forward to seeing the film when I get the chance.

Niall

[Chris DeNigris]

Tony,

The filmmakers had an agenda when they made the documentary. You came away with exactly the message that they wanted you to have.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Tony,

The filmmakers had an agenda when they made the documentary. You came away with exactly the message that they wanted you to have.

Really?  Have you seen the film Chris?

What message did you come away with from the Trump press conferences?

[Chris DeNigris]

Tony,

I never really listen to press conferences since they are largely PR.

A documentary should be unbiased and impartial if it's to be educational.

See more Ken Burns and less Michael Moore.

[Garland Bayley]

Tony,

I never really listen to press conferences since they are largely PR.

A documentary should be unbiased and impartial if it's to be educational.

See more Ken Burns and less Michael Moore.

So you haven't seen the film. We're looking forward to course reviews from you on courses you haven't played. Got any stereotypes of the architects you wish to promote?

[Chris DeNigris]

Garland- I don't review courses I haven't played..do you? 

Who is the we in we're?

Do you have a valid point?

[Tony_Muldoon]

Tony,

I never really listen to press conferences since they are largely PR.

A documentary should be unbiased and impartial if it's to be educational.

See more Ken Burns and less Michael Moore.

Even if you didn't attend any of Trump's Press Conferences where do you think "the information" you received came from? One of the great problems facing Democracy today is the lack of reporters as news organisations struggle to fund them.  Hence pick up any newspaper and they are all running close variants of the same wire stories and there are no teams of investigative journalists as there were in the past.  Hence we need independents if we are to get past PR.

As far as I am aware Ken Burns does history not reportage.

Proving the rule, just this once Garland has a point. If you re read my review you'll see I'm critical of the film. If you want to read an on message review go back to The Guardian one referenced earlier in the thread. If you want to disagree with my take on the film, at least see the film before telling me what I saw was wrong.

[Garland Bayley]

....just this once Garland has a point.....

Tony, Tony, Tony!! I always have a point! I just may not be very good at getting it across.

[Chris DeNigris]

Tony,

I'm not saying or even implying that your take on the film is wrong...it's your opinion and opinions are never wrong (except for some of Garland's  )

I'm just saying that you or anyone else shouldn't base their entire opinion on an issue based on an obviously biased piece.

I take the info from the Trump camp with a large grain of salt..the same way this film should be viewed, IMO. That's all.

One of the problems with "reporters" in today's press is the lack of objectivity. Reporters of news are supposed to be neutral.

The filmmaker here is neither a reporter or a good documentary maker. If his POV is this slanted he's really created a fictionalized account of true events...his version. While not completely devoid of educational value it's likely closer to propaganda.

[Tony_Muldoon]

based on an obviously biased piece.


The filmmaker here is neither a reporter or a good documentary maker.

How can you go on saying these things if you haven’t seen it? 
How have you formed these opinions?
Based on what?

IMO it’s not me that’s following any one else's line.

Chris as you don't appear to have read my Review properly or responded to the points I've made, I'm leaving it here and giving you the opportunity to have the last word - except that Garland will want that.

[Chris DeNigris]

based on an obviously biased piece.


The filmmaker here is neither a reporter or a good documentary maker.

How can you go on saying these things if you haven’t seen it? 
How have you formed these opinions?


Based on what?

IMO it’s not me that’s following any one else's line.

Chris as you don't appear to have read my Review properly or responded to the points I've made, I'm leaving it here and giving you the opportunity to have the last word - except that Garland will want that.

Tony,

I simply read this entire thread. Sorta like Cliff notes.

And I also read most of the Report to the Scottish Ministers...which is a pretty impartial, factual representation of what actually occurred.

There's been a ton of wildly inaccurate statements made from both sides of the discussion and a bunch of misrepresentations and misconceptions...again from both sides. As usual with such things the truth is really an amalgam and falls somewhere in the middle.

I never made any controversial or outlandish comments regarding you or your review of the film. I simply said that it was biased and they had an agenda (do you dispute this?) and that you came away sharing their point of view. By your own admission that you'll not be playing the course that seems a reasonable conclusion as well.

I hope you change your mind- about playing the course- I'd like to hear what you think of it.

[David_Tepper]

The NY Times reviews"You've Been Trumped."

http://movies.nytimes.com/2012/08/03/movies/youve-been-trumped-an-unflattering-documentary.html?hpw

[Brian_Ewen]

BBC2 Sunday Night at 10pm.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/oct/17/local-hero-donald-trump-bullying?newsfeed=true
 
Local Hero film-maker takes swing at Donald Trump for 'malign bullying'Bafta-winning director Bill Forsyth shocked by film that reveals 'lives put to hazard and craven political behaviour' over resort
Wednesday 17 October 2012
The film-maker Bill Forsyth has claimed that people living next to Donald Trump's golf course have suffered from "malign, egotistical bullying" and "craven" political behaviour comparable to living in communist-era Romania.

In an article for the Guardian Forsyth said there were striking parallels between the experiences of Trump's neighbours in Aberdeenshire and the fictional disputes in his cult classic Local Hero involving a US billionaire who wants to buy a remote Scottish beach and village.

The director, who won a Bafta for Local Hero in 1983, said that a highly critical documentary on the Trump golf course called You've Been Trumped, which will be broadcast on UK television for the first time this Sunday, had left him "dazed and shocked".

Forsyth, right, said: "We're watching real lives and livelihoods mercilessly put to hazard by a malign concoction of egotistical bullying, corporate muscle flexing, craven averting of gaze by national politicians and crass misreading of events by local authorities including police."

The documentary, which recorded Trump's neighbours losing their water supply, having vast earth walls built outside their homes and the film-makers arrested, was "a moving depiction of human survival and dignity amidst murky doings akin to seventies Romania."

Many cited Local Hero after one of Trump's most stubborn neighbours, Michael Forbes, resisted the property developer's repeated efforts to buy and demolish his home to expand the golf resort. Trump said Forbes's home was a "pigsty" and a "slum" and called Forbes "dirty" and "a loser".

In 2010, Lord Puttnam, who produced Local Hero with Forsyth, emerged as one of 60 protesters against the course who had bought small parcels of land from Forbes to thwart attempts to compulsorily purchase Forbes's home.

Forsyth writes that Trump emerged from the documentary as an unsophisticated, shallow "Johnny One Note" whose character "would have very limited utility in a sophisticated fictional drama. That's not to deny his usefulness elsewhere, say in a comparatively primitive or cheap drama."

Trump reacted to news that the documentary was being shown on BBC2 by launching a tirade on Twitter against its director, Anthony Baxter, and other "morons" who criticised his now mothballed £750m resort, which was to be built at the course.

Trump stated: "All the morons that cause the controversy in Scotlandhave made my development far more successful than anticipated."

He then added that the film, which has now been screened in US cinemas and was acclaimed by the radical filmmaker Michael Moore, had helped him "promote & make Trump International Golf Links Scotland so successful you stupid fool!" In another tweet, he told Baxter: "Your documentary has died many deaths. You have, in my opinion, zero talent."

The documentary's broadcast on Sunday night is an awkward piece of timing for the first minister Alex Salmond, once an influential supporter of Trump's £750m plan for a major golf resort in his Aberdeenshire constituency.

The Scottish National party wraps up its annual conference in Perth on Sunday, and the broadcast follows a fresh row over Salmond's formerly close relationship with Trump.

It emerged last week the first minister had written privately to Trump seeking his public support for the controversial decision to release Abdelbaset al-Megrahi, the man convicted of the Lockerbie bombing. Trump refused.

The pair have since fallen out publicly over Trump's repeated attacks on a government-backed offshore windfarm test site planned near his estate north of Aberdeen. Those intensified on Tuesday after Trump's lawyers threatened again to sue Scottish agencies supporting the windfarm proposal.

Trump's executive vice president and counsel, George Sorial, would not comment directly on Forsyth's remarks but said Baxter's film was "a gross misrepresentation of the facts."

Sorial said the project was widely supported by local people, business leaders and local politicians.

[Brian_Ewen]

Anthony Baxter slams the lack of progress at Donald Trump's Menie Estate development in new documentary
21 Oct 2012
IF you watch You’ve Been Trumped, you will doubtless have questions, perhaps the most obvious one being: “That was then. What about now?”

So here is an update. Donald Trump opened the first of two golf courses on July 10. Apart from a temporary clubhouse, the rest of the development has been put on hold.

A development given the go-ahead by Alex Salmond’s Government and supposed to create 6000 jobs, has in fact led to a small fraction of that.

The luxury hotel, housing and holiday villas remain on the drawing board. So does golf course No.2.

To begin with, Trump said he would not build his hotel because he did not want his guests looking out over fisherman Michael Forbes’ farm, claiming it was “a slum”.

Now the billionaire is blaming a proposed offshore windfarm for the lack of progress. Again, “the view” is the problem.

Another pressing question I have been asked at sold-out cinema screenings of the film from Aberdeen to Zagreb is, “What about the residents?”

As you will see in the film, residents on the Menie Estate who refused to sell were faced with the spectre of being evicted through the use of compulsory purchase orders.

But the extraordinary Local Heroes – the residents – are all still living on the Menie Estate.

Trump banned me from attending the opening – only media selected by the Trump organisation were allowed – so instead, I spent that day with residents.

I saw how Susan Munro has security gates at the bottom of her garden.

When Susan recently complained about the security presence, she was told not to worry, as she will soon be “issued with a
security pass to access her property”.

David and Moira Milne observed the opening of the Trump course from their home, the historic former coastal watch station.

David said he thought the launch was “laughable”.

At Michael and Molly Forbes’ home, the golf course seemed a distant reality. Over a cup of tea and biscuits in Molly’s cosy caravan – dubbed “an environmental hazard” by Trump – they were doing their best to ignore the launch.

I spoke with Susan again last week, shortly after Trump launched a Twitter tirade against me and the residents.

He dubbed me “a stupid fool” and “a loser”. Worse, the residents were slated as “morons”.

His use of that word to describe those who have objected to his resort strikes me as deeply insulting.

For this extra-ordinary group, the intense daily anxiety of having to deal with the unusual level of security on the site continues.

Susan told me that a security guard had been keeping a watch on her home until 2am that day.

She explained she was going to have to buy new blinds to block out security lights shining into her bedroom.

With the rain lashing down that morning, she reported just a few cars in Trump’s golf club car park.

“It’s a horrible wet day,” remarked Susan. “Good for the golf course though. And I haven’t been down to the
beach since the security gate went up.”

My heart goes out to Susan and to all the residents of the Menie Estate. They have shown extraordinary courage and dignity throughout this saga.

You’ve Been Trumped’s BBC broadcast comes on the last day of the SNP conference in Perth. As at least one TV reviewer noted, the film “throws an interesting light on the independence debate”.

Alex Salmond declined invitations to see the film in the Scottish Parliament and public screenings across Scotland. The residents tell me they are shocked he has not been to visit them, despite the fact the development is in his constituency.

It is too late to save the Site of Special Scientific Interest on the Menie Estate, but Susan thinks as the years pass, the ancient shifting dunes will reap their quiet vengeance on Trump’s golf course.

As the acclaimed singer-songwriter Karine Polwart puts it in her moving song heard over the end credits of the film: “The haar will stumble in to cover your eyes.”

[Philip Gawith]

Just reading the strength of feeling on this page (and not having followed all that goes before) makes me wonder whether it is worth entering this discussion.....! For what it is worth, i watched most of the film last night (the last 70  minutes or so). As a "campaigning" documentary, it was quite effective. There is no questioning that the collision between an overweening US developer and a local community was unsettling in practice, and the film was effective in conveying this. Of course, Trump is a cartoon villain. A harder question would have been if the developer had had a more sophisticated face - what then? I am inclined to think that that part of Scotland does need development - but that many people in that film were against any form of development, and Donald Trump (for whom i have no brief, and is an unsympathetic personality) just made their task easier. Maybe i am just too naive in believing that Salmond might have had the broader interest at heart, even if it came to some extent at the price of the locals captured in this film. It is a shame that the film is not able to capture the dilemmas he faced and that the "case for the defence" is largely silent. There are no easy answers to clashes like this. Finally, it would have been a better film if it had acknowledged that the course opened two months ago to considerable acclaim, at least in golfing circles. Maybe that is small beer in the grand scheme, but it is still part of the story.

[Jon Wiggett]

Phillip,

good post. Castle Stuart shows how it is possible to get a major project (it is of similar scale to Trumps) accepted and supported by the vast majority of the locals. Indeed, I have yet to here any local say anything negative about it.

I was certainly not in favour of Trump's course being built in a SSSI though I was very pro the project being built in Aberdeenshire. Although the docu will be biased against Trump it is clear that deals have been done in backrooms. I was shocked at the police and their actions. I will never vote SNP again as it is also clear that the calling in of this project was not done in the interests of either Aberdeenshire, Scotland or the UK.

Jon

[Rich Goodale]

John W.

From all of what I have read (including on this forum) and all I have seen and I know, Trump's course has been accepted and supported by just as high a percentage of locals as has been Castle Stuart.  Both have created something where there was nothing, and have had a positive impact on the local economy and polity.

Bill Forsyth et. al.

Michael Forbes' place in the middle of Trumpville is as much like Ben's beach shack in "Local Hero" as Jack Vetriano is to Leonardo (Da Vinci, not di Caprio....).  The only words that come immediately to mind are "trailer trash," and I don't mean Trump, for all his warts.....

Rich

[Mat Poade]

I just finished watching the documentary. It might not show both sides of the story, but It certainly doesnt look like he went about things the right way.

I certainly won't ever go and play the course. More than enough courses to play so avoiding one won't be much of a problem.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Anthony Baxter slams the lack of progress at Donald Trump's Menie Estate development in new documentary
21 Oct 2012
IF you watch You’ve Been Trumped, you will doubtless have questions, perhaps the most obvious one being: “That was then. What about now?”

So here is an update. Donald Trump opened the first of two golf courses on July 10. Apart from a temporary clubhouse, the rest of the development has been put on hold.

Has it? I thought he'd just announced the Hotel was going forward.

MM Mr Baxter, time to answer some hard hitting questions.

Now you are putting out Press Realeases like Mr Trump and you seemed to have learned a little from him.

You neglect to mention the showing I attended, it was in the studio of the Hackney Picture house and it was far from sold out. You also bailed out from a billed appearance.


Most of this press release is not really an update it's just name calling, it's descending to 'their' tactics. IMO of course.


If you would like to reply I would be very interested in what happened re the land dispute.

ON the one side Trump claimed several residents had included part of 'his' land inside their boundaries.


ON the other, side the residents claimed that not only was this incorrect but overnight their fences had been destroyed, the cheapest form (chestnut paling) of temporary fence was erected and a large firm of Solicitors sent them a hefty bill for this service.


About a year has passed would you update us on the outcome of this part of the dispute, I think it goes to the credibility of both sides.



TRump clearly divides people but I am mystified by this review.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/9621334/Youve-Been-Trumped-BBC-Two-review.html

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()