[Lou_Duran]

I guess I was right Lou, you don't have the class to apologise!

Regarding what happened many years ago, it was poor form. I got a fairly nasty rambling response from you (fair enough), and I thought that in the circumstances it was right to apologise. Of course it was nothing personal - I don't even know you! I don't recall inviting you for a game, but I could be wrong about that.

So it was you as I thought!    You call me an asshole and a few other "nasty" things not to my face, but BEHIND MY BACK and you want to talk about class?  Apologize for what?  Because either you can't express your thoughts clearly or are otherwise unaware of your prejudices?  Give me a break, mate.  What is not personal about gossiping so vehemently in the backroom Discussion Group about somone you admit you "don't even know"?  Me writing a "fairly nasty rambling response" that supposedly provoked your bad form?  I may ramble from time to time, but typically try not to be nasty about it.  However, I do at times respond to serious threads and replies which are laden with strong emotional, self-identity, political content.  I've been known to get a strong reaction when I question the underlying premises or values by presenting "the other side of the story".  It is never my intent to be mean or abusive, and I try hard not to say anything that's negative about somebody else that I wouldn't be willing to say to their face.   Oh, and you shouldn't expect my call when I eventually visit your beautiful country.  

[Niall C]

Niall- did you or Paul consider the construction capabilities when Colt was working?  I am more acquainted with MacKenzie and he was a proponent of using labor saving machinery, and was not shy in helping Mother Nature as needed.  You may also recall that "connector holes" and awkward or quirky design features were common (and accepted) because of the inability to overcome various site problems.


Jon- I am sure I don't understand all the relevant facts, but I may not be as quick to cloak opinions and prefences with that higher status.  I confess to a bias toward growth and the dignity of work.  I very much enjoy interacting with Nature, but I do not see the environment as an entity separate from human experience.  Is it a fact that the SSI was "destroyed"?  Apparently Trump didn't believe the alternative was as equally good, or maybe you believe that he enjoys antagonizing people and spending money for their own sake.  

Lou

Balmedie is the other name for the area where Trump has built his course. So what I was suggesting to Paul was that back in Colt's days they simply couldn't have built a course the way Trump and I was using Montrose as an example of where they tried and failed. That was also what I was trying to explain to Patrick, that Troon and Prestwick and such like really don't bear comparison to this site in terms of what was there to make a course out of. At those other courses, rudimentary courses were simply laid out. At Balmedie you would be up to your ankles in sand without any fescue in sight. Exaggeration ? Possibly, but probably not by much.

I've come to the conclusion that this debate is going round in circles and that the only real difference is that most of those on the against side are familiar with the site, its unique characteristics and how it differs from other links land, and those like you and Patrick that are wondering what the fuss is about maybe haven't quite grasped what made this site what it was.

I suspect on the scale from "build wherever you want" to "never touch a sensitive site" that most folks in this debate would be somewhere in between and probably siding towards the later end of the scale. I think where the disconnect comes as I've said above is maybe not quite appreciating what was there. And I really don't mean that to sound condescending.

Niall

[Chris Kane]

Lou, I can't let that go through to the kepper. I'm almost certain that I did not call you an 'asshole' or anything of the sort (if you still have the message which confirms otherwise, please forward it to me and I'll be happy to correct myself). It was more along the lines that I thought your political views were crazy. If you do visit my country, I hope you're more circumspect about throwing out cheapshots while you're here - I can assure you that it will be interpreted as 'mean and abusive'.

[Paul OConnor]

I'm pretty sure that most of the population of this planet could give a fuck if another golf course was ever built.  But if jackasses like Trump insist on building them in areas that the non-golfing world decides, for whatever reason, have specific cultural, ecological, or sentimental value, well, there's likely to be a pretty big shitstorm.  

[David_Tepper]

Gentlemen -

It might very well be time to let this thread rest for a while. The rhetoric has escalated to an extreme level and it appears the same arguments are been re-cycled.

There have been several other prior threads on the Trump project in Scotland and there will likely be more in the future. See you then!

DT

[Lou_Duran]

Come on David, it is just starting to get interesting.  The real issues are just beginning to get fleshed-out.

Chris- I have known quite a few people from your country- I have standing invitations from several to play golf when I visit- concluded business with a couple, and other than with you, I have never had a bit of difficulty with any one of them (check that, I think there might also be a transplant living there who has been less than cordial with me, but I am told is not personal- he is that way with most everyone).  Quite the opposite, I found Ausies to be warm, fun, engaging, sporting, and fairly thick-skinned- the kind that can offer a dig with the best of them, and are equally good with the returns.  I've travelled quite a bit and have warm relationships most everywhere.  Whatever burr you have rubbing the wrong place, consider who it is lobbing the cheapshots.  But thanks for the advice, even if it appears not to be well-intentioned.

Niall- you might be right about the folks on this site.  Trump obviously disagrees with that assessment, and though his style leaves a lot to be desired (I am not a fan at all), he has a rather compelling record.  Why he would want to get involved in something so controversial is beyond me.  Who knows, maybe he did get emotionally drawn into this mess by his Scottish roots.  Perhaps the natural beauty many of you wished to protect cried out to him to make something more permanent with it.  Given where things stand, let's at least hope he succeeds.   

[Mark_F]

I have never had a bit of difficulty with any one of them (check that, I think there might also be a transplant living there who has been less than cordial with me, but I am told is not personal- he is that way with most everyone). 

I presume you mean me.  Care to explain your choice of phrase calling me a transplant?  The fact that I have had a testicle removed and replaced with an artificial one is no reason to be so rude about someone's medical disabilities, especially given the personal and psychological effects it has had on me.

BTW, in AUS or even Scotland a wage of $10/hour might be easily dismissed by the local populations, in Texas, Walmart and many golf courses have no trouble finding well-educated seniors to take jobs at 65% of that rate to provide services to their customers.

Their parents must be so proud all of that expensive education allowed them to work at Walmart.  And for $6.50 an hour! Why, that means they will be able to buy an extra candle to read Mitt Romney's tax return by.

Lastly, perhaps Scotland is different, but Texas has had more job and population growth than any other state in the Union for many years because it is welcoming of outsiders. 

Thank heavens you have the welcome mat out. 

People move here for a better life.

They sure do.

[Jon Wiggett]

David T,

you are probably correct and we should put this topic aside for a while. It seems that certain people are very selective in what they want to read and questions they reply to leading to the discussion going round in circles. I do wonder what connection Chris DeNigris has to the project though.

Jon

[Chris DeNigris]

Jon,

I have no connection at all. I just love golf, really love golf in Scotland and Ireland, especially on links courses that are built in and around magnificent dunes. I think they are wonderful and fantastic and truly world treasures. And I don't think there are nearly enough of them. I wish there were many more of these for golf lovers to choose from and maybe someday there will be.

What I'm not terrilbly fond of are gross distortions of facts based on emotional hyperbole, hidden agendas and general dis-information. At the beginning of this thread there were a few slanted articles linked to that presented a very one-sided picture of the situation. Several people took buzz words and selected phrases from these and other articles and somehow came to the conclusion that there was catastrophic, cataclysmic, wholesale destruction of the dunes and general property at the Menie Estate. That same myth was repeated several times in this thread with great horror and indignation.

One of the slanted articles provided a link to the Report to the Scottish Ministers, a 295 page document that has just about every fact regarding the project and approval/appeal process well documented. It provides both sides of the issue, in what appears to be an unbiased and straightforward manner. It certainly appears to be comprehensive, thoughtful, well reasoned and unemotional. And for most of us on this site who have not followed every aspect of the process for the past 6 or more years- very informative and educational if you take some time to read it. It answered a lot of the questions that I had, that I had asked here in this forum and that no one here chose to provide answers to.

 http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/Doc/212607/0067709.pdf

Some people just hate Trump, all he stands for and everything he does. I understand that. I'm not a big Trump supporter either. Some people are fanatical enviromental advocates and will oppose anything and everything that even sniffs at or near some natural resource. I get that too, I just think a lot of that is way too extreme.

Combine the two and you get a lot of hyperbole and myth generation and ultimately silly name calling that surrounds this issue.

I'm sure the Trump side exagerated things in their application. And I'm sure the opposition exagerated things on their side as well.

Read the report and then maybe we can have a discussion on the actual facts, the actual ramifications of what's being done at Menie. We may not ever agree but, who knows..

[Niall C]

Chris

The Trump organisation has planted over and in their own words "stabilised" large tracts of sands in the shifting dune system ie. it no longer is a shifting dune system. If you don't want to use the words "wholesale destruction" for that, what words would you use ?

And yes I've read the SNH literature, the planning documents and have been over the site which I assume you have as well. I would be interested to hear how you would compare the site pre-development to other more typical linksland elsewhere. When you looked over the expanse of sand, did you really think there was another Ballybunnion out there ?

Niall

[Chris DeNigris]

Niall,

I simply suggested that you and others read the report to the Scottish Ministers. It'll answer all your questions. It will clearly explain, better than I can, why there is no wholesale destruction going on there. It will also explain why several learned scientists think that the "stabilization" of the dunes will have many positive environmental effects to go along with the detrimental effects to the shifting sands. It will also explain that what the scientists are most fearful of losing by the stabilization of the dunes is the "classification" of the site as an SSSI..which is not even a sure thing...it still may be classified as an SSSI and there still may be significant scientific research able to be performed there under protected status. New research that maybe will be unique and worthwhile for future development projects. Not the same shifting sand research that is currently able to be perfomed in the vast areas north of Menie.  And it would also explain the exact percentages of the affected dunes in the Menie estate and how that relates to the entire Foveran SSSI, of which the Menie estate is only a third of. It will explain a lot of other interesting stuff as well.

And I really wouldn't use the SNH report as a basis to hang your cap on...as Kalen pointed out rather well in a previous post.

I've never been to the site. Closest was when I drove through Aberdeen on my way to Fife after playing in the dunes of Cruden Bay. I don't care if it's another Ballybunion, although I'd prefer if it were more of a Lahinch. But I really like the pictures that I've seen so far on this site and I hope to play there in the not too distant future.

[Lou_Duran]

I have never had a bit of difficulty with any one of them (check that, I think there might also be a transplant living there who has been less than cordial with me, but I am told is not personal- he is that way with most everyone). 

I presume you mean me.  Care to explain your choice of phrase calling me a transplant?  The fact that I have had a testicle removed and replaced with an artificial one is no reason to be so rude about someone's medical disabilities, especially given the personal and psychological effects it has had on me.

Yes, Mark, I was referring to you.  I had no idea of your medical and psychological problems.  The reference to maybe being a transplant is based on a faint recollection that you hailed from elsewhere, perhaps the UK, but lived in Australia.  As to the rest, it is very sad that you feel as you do.   I don't envy how you must live.  

[Lou_Duran]

ChrisD- thanks for your post #291.  It presents my POV better than I could have.

Niall-  I think it is more than style or semantics.  What percentage of the population would you say would use "wholesale destruction" to describe the current landscape all around the club?  I suggest that the majority of the comments would include: certain parts altered, modified, restrained.  It is interesting how opinions and priorities have changed over time.

And with this I'll take DavidT's advice.  I've put off my year-end planning long enough anyways.  Cheers. 

[Adam Lawrence]

There was a mobile sand dune system, now there isn't. QED, that system has been 'destroyed'. One can argue that it's perhaps too emotive a word to describe the grassing over of a large area of exposed sand, but one cannot argue that the mobile dune system still exists.

I saw a presentation on the construction of the course, and in particular the stabilisation of the mobile dune system, at the BIGGA show at Harrogate this week. It was given by the guy who was the site foreman for the golf course contractor and the European representative of the company that provided the equipment used to stabilise the dunes. Taken as a technical achievement, it was a remarkable piece of work - they were having huge problems getting grass to take on those dunes, because the sand was blowing so fast.

The issue is whether a rare mobile sand dune system is of more 'value', however that is described, than a golf course. I am reserving judgement. But I still have major objections to the way the Trump organisation and the Scottish Executive handled the planning process.

[Chris DeNigris]

Adam,

There still is a "mobile sand dune system" there at Menie. Just not as much of it anymore. And there is still plenty of mobile sand dune systems further north in the rest of the Foveran SSSI. There is scientific opinion that these mobile sand dune systems eventually cease moving and become stationary on their own accord without global environmental catastrophic repurcussions. Not my opinion, it's in the report.

I'm sure there will be all sorts of challenges associated with stabilizing the dunes and stopping the sand erosion. This will no doubt be a tremendous opportunity to explore and create new techniques for doing this and other similar environmental things. Who knows, maybe this will spawn new scientific discovery into preventing dune and beach erosion worldwide. There are a lot of instances where stabilization and stability are actually considered good things, not evil.

[Sean_A]

Adam,

There still is a "mobile sand dune system" there at Menie. Just not as much of it anymore. And there is still plenty of mobile sand dune systems further north in the rest of the Foveran SSSI. There is scientific opinion that these mobile sand dune systems eventually cease moving and become stationary on their own accord without global environmental catastrophic repurcussions. Not my opinion, it's in the report.

I'm sure there will be all sorts of challenges associated with stabilizing the dunes and stopping the sand erosion. This will no doubt be a tremendous opportunity to explore and create new techniques for doing this and other similar environmental things. Who knows, maybe this will spawn new scientific discovery into preventing dune and beach erosion worldwide. There are a lot of instances where stabilization and stability are actually considered good things, not evil.

Chris

You are missing the point. This was the biggest and fastest moving dune system in Scotland - maybe western Europe.  These reasons plus the theory that eventually these dunes will stabilize naturally are why the site was made an SSSI.  That doesn't mean that altering the site won't necessarily have some positive scientific and leisure outcome, but it will be a different outcome - not why the site was made an SSSI in the first place.  In other words, its an opportunity lost for continued study of this type and size of dune system in Scotland, perhaps Western Europe.  While I can understand folks caring more about a new course than what was there, I can't understand why its difficult to understand how the SSSI site was destroyed by the very nature of the golf development.

Ciao

[Chris DeNigris]

Sean,

There's a big difference between missing a point and not agreeing with it. Otherwise, I think you're obviously missing my point.

The Menie Links are not their own SSSI, they are part (one third) of the Foveran SSSI. The two links that comprise the northern 2/3 of the SSSI-Foveran Links and Drum Links- have been previously designated as a Geological Conservation Review (GCR) site...but until the Trump application hit the street, there was no such designation for Menie. Then they scrambled to get the designation- it's at the end of the oft-referenced SNH report and also mentioned in the more relevant report to the Scottish Ministers.

Again, the SSSI site hasn't been destroyed...the reports and scientists refer to "the destruction of the geomorphological interest" in the affected portion of the site. Whether that part of Menie Links loses it's designation as an SSSI has yet to be determined.

All these wonderful scientific facts and opinions were carefully scrutinized and analyzed in the process and the decision was made to allow the development. The rationale is in the report. The Aberdeenshire Council and the Aberdeen City Council both agreed with the approval and the development...as did the variious Chambers of Commerce and most of the population in the area.

[Tim Pitner]

I don't have a position on whether the course should have been built where it was or on the development and permitting process (such as it was).  I haven't done my due diligence on these issues.  I look forward to seeing the film for an interesting perspective.

What I will say is that, like Lyle Lovett and Julia Roberts or Rich Rodriguez and the Univ. of Michigan, this is one of those combinations, Trump plus links golf, that never made any sense to me.  Perhaps Trump's investments in U.S. courses have been successful, but an embrace of minimalism/naturalism has never been part of the equation.  I don't think Trump has an appreciation for the soul of the game.  I can't imagine a great links course without this element.  Even being optimistic, the project was always going to be more like Doonbeg than Castle Stuart, Kingsbarns or the Renaissance Club.  

[Sean_A]

Sean,

There's a big difference between missing a point and not agreeing with it. Otherwise, I think you're obviously missing my point.

The Menie Links are not their own SSSI, they are part (one third) of the Foveran SSSI. The two links that comprise the northern 2/3 of the SSSI-Foveran Links and Drum Links- have been previously designated as a Geological Conservation Review (GCR) site...but until the Trump application hit the street, there was no such designation for Menie. Then they scrambled to get the designation- it's at the end of the oft-referenced SNH report and also mentioned in the more relevant report to the Scottish Ministers.

Again, the SSSI site hasn't been destroyed...the reports and scientists refer to "the destruction of the geomorphological interest" in the affected portion of the site. Whether that part of Menie Links loses it's designation as an SSSI has yet to be determined.

All these wonderful scientific facts and opinions were carefully scrutinized and analyzed in the process and the decision was made to allow the development. The rationale is in the report. The Aberdeenshire Council and the Aberdeen City Council both agreed with the approval and the development...as did the variious Chambers of Commerce and most of the population in the area.

Chris

Does it matter if the site was protected starting 50 years earlier?  Necessity is the mother of invention. 

The site may still be classed as SSSI, but that doesn't alter the fact that it has been altered and because of this can never be studied in the same way. 

I don't want to rehash the decision process.  You think it was fine and dandy; I think it was a demonstration of governmental incompetence - at best. 

Ciao 

Ciao

[Kalen Braley]

Sean interesting you mention governmental incompetence.

Last I checked...the SNH is at least a de facto governmental organization as its sponsored and funded directly by the government.

I also thought I would include this little tidbit from the SNH report:

"In sum, the recent geomorphological history of the entire section of coast from Balmedie to North Forvie strongly suggests ongoing, possibly cyclical, north and north-westwards movement of bare sand sheets or sheets that encroach upon pre-existing dunes in the north and farmland in the north-west"

It would seem that there could be a very strong public interest to keep the dune in check so it doesn't spoil otherwise productive farmland.

[Chris DeNigris]

Sean,

We can just agree to disagree.

It shouldn't be hard to imagine that the environmental folks could exagerate their side of the story, just like it's easy to understand the Trump group and the pro-development folks exagerating the economic benefits of the project. Everyone exagerates when they have a vested interest and are trying to make points.

It's very clear from reading the reports that both the local and National governments were going to allow the development to occur. The only real contention was whether several of the holes on the back nine were going to encroach on the protected areas. When the Aberdeenshire Council Infrastructure Committee came back with their initial rejection it was merely a negotiation attempt to keep the course away from the dunes. Trump played hardball and they blinked first.

[William_G]

http://www.snh.org.uk/pdfs/publications/commissioned_reports/232.pdf

DT 

The land in question looks like some areas on the Southern Oregon Coast.

[George Pazin]

... Basically it comes down the cost of something and the value of something. What they have destroyed is priceless IMO.

Niall

Could you explain to this relatively ignorant lay person, what is the difference between the dunes where Trumps development sits, and the land at Dornoch, Ballybunion, St Andrews, St Enodoc, etc?

Honest question, thanks in advance for the answer.

-----

To me, the questions that arise from developments such as this are among the most difficult around. The single most important philosophical principle involved, imho, is equality before the law. I don't like seeing anyone treated differently. It's analogous to the Rules of Golf, again imho - like situations require like rulings, or whatever the pithy phrase is. I believe as long as the situation is treated equitably, the proper answer is granted. Trump shouldn't be treated better because he's a billionaire foreigner, nor should he be treated worse because he's a billionaire foreigner. In fact, the fact that it's Trump should have no real bearing on the outcome.

And I realize that's pretty much impossible in today's world. That's how far off course we are...

[Mark Chaplin]

George in the case of Dornoch and St Andrews the difference is around 400 years. Things that were allowed 50, 100 or 400 years ago would not in many cases be permitted now.

Trump had favourable help from the Scottish legislature because he was offering money and jobs. The course would not have been built if it was a co-operative of local people trying to build a links for the local market.

[Garland Bayley]

... People move here for a better life not just from eastern Europe, Asia, Mexico, etc. but from every state.  ...

Now that's funny!

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