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Sean_A

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Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #25 on: January 19, 2012, 03:40:04 AM »
I dare not see this film for fear of a heart attach out of sheer outrage.  This entire Trump/Scottish government drama is a sorry affair which I hope bites that fat ass of Salmond.  Scots should be sickened by their sycophant politicians.  

I have been waiting for an independent assessment of the economic benefits of this project since the hairball stated the words "billion pound".  But to be fair to hairball, he only took what the Scots gave him.  If anyone should be blamed it is Salmond and his cronies.  They trod over local politics and scientific opinion in a mad rush for "billion".  Lets hope this episode in no way is seen as precedent to excuse further daft ideas.  

Oh, and isn't this a great advertisement for golf?  

Ciao  
« Last Edit: January 19, 2012, 07:28:12 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #26 on: January 19, 2012, 07:08:23 AM »
David Tepper,

Aren't the two connected ?

How can Trump make profits unless the project does well ?

And if the project does well, won't that have a positive impact on the economy ?

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #27 on: January 19, 2012, 07:34:38 AM »
David Tepper,

Aren't the two connected ?

How can Trump make profits unless the project does well ?

And if the project does well, won't that have a positive impact on the economy ?

Pat

Sure the two are connected, but we only have Trump's version of what the economic impact will be.  The Scottish government never made public any independent economic impact assessment they had may have commissioned.  If an assessment wasn't commissioned it is a serious omission of due diligence - especially when one considers this decision was deemed one of national interest - so much so that a local council's decision was over-turned.  If one was commissioned, where is it?   

I for one don't trust Trump's hyperbole.  For instance, this started off as  £1 billion project.  I have seen other reports state £500 million.  Just this discrepency has a huge economic difference of impact. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #28 on: January 19, 2012, 12:36:51 PM »
How can Trump make profits unless the project does well ?
And if the project does well, won't that have a positive impact on the economy ?

Arguments based on simple arithmetic and logic have no merit if they weigh against life-long, closely-held beliefs which define our self-concept.  Trump is seen by some as a profiteer, a lout, a vulgar capitalist, a brash self-promoter of little substance, a mostly unintelligent, simplistic, self-absorbed narcissist.  And worst of all, a Republican!  No evidence that contradicts this carefully erected straw man sways.  The stronger it is, the greater the vehemence and personal invective.

Besides, everyone knows that a real estate developer never risks his own money.  Instead, through unconscionable up-front development fees, management contracts, and off-the-books accounting, he appropriates the meager savings of many hard-working people who are just trying to build a modest nest egg so they may enjoy a dignified retirement.  If the project is a success, the developer takes exhorbitant profits off the back-end while his investors only receive a small return despite taking all of the risk.  If it fails, the developer goes to the next project while the investors lose it all.  One has to wonder why there aren't more developers and fewer investors. 

By the way, I was under the impression that this was a commercial-free site?

Niall C

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Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #29 on: January 19, 2012, 01:41:10 PM »
Lou

You are talking complete bolloks.

Hugs and kisses

Niall

Niall C

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Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #30 on: January 19, 2012, 01:50:04 PM »
Patrick

As DT states the flimsy part is the supposed economic impact the development is mean't to have on the economy as a whole, not the profit he is likely to make out of doing the development. If someone were to do a paper trail on the press statements issued from Trumps camp I think you would find that the claim has gone from $500m to £500 to $1billion to £1billion. Unlike Sean I very much doubt that he would have had to verify those figures or that they would have been given any kind of scrutiny. They normally aren't as far as I'm aware.

I recall discussing the sums stated with a former partner of the major accountancy practice that produced these figures. When I mentioned the sum quoted it took him 5 minutes to stop laughing.

Niall

David_Tepper

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Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #31 on: January 19, 2012, 01:55:53 PM »
"The stronger it is, the greater the vehemence and personal invective."

Lou D. -

Donald Trump has raised "vehemence and personal invective" to an art form. For him, it is standard business practice. ;)

DT

Lou_Duran

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Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #32 on: January 19, 2012, 03:08:17 PM »
Lou

Hugs and kisses

Niall

Let's be careful or some may get the wrong idea here.  I can handle being caricatured as a right-wing reactionary, but certainly not a New Castrate or Metrosexual.  I stand by what I said.  The chances of Trump achieving something that approaches his claims are quite good when compared to your or my government's track record on exponentially larger initiatives.  And, as far as I know, at least Trump is not using taxpayer money.  I wonder how many producers are out marketing one-sided exposes on the returns of green energy public "investments" on either side of the pond, not to say anything about promoting them on a commercial-free website.  Double standards?  Of course not.  I am just beinga grump.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #33 on: January 19, 2012, 07:24:17 PM »
Niall,

The sums stated are almost irrelevant.
Whether it's $ 200,000,000 or $ 400,000,000 or $ 600,000,000 or $ 1,000,000,000, that's a lot of money to invest in a project.

So the question remains, irrespective of whether Trump invested $ 1,000,000 or $ 1,000,000,000, he's looking for that investment to be profitable, to have it generate a satisfactory return on his investment, and if it's profitable for him, that means it's a successful enterprise, which means that it's successful for the economy.

I hope that's not too complicated for most

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #34 on: January 19, 2012, 07:52:14 PM »
Lou I would never call you a metro sexual you handsome devil you. However I would not be so quick to say where DT money on any given project comes from nor when and where the government has or will provide him revenue. I would say he appreciates corporate welfare as much or more than the average egomaniac.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #35 on: January 20, 2012, 05:17:38 PM »
Apologies Lou, I should have been more considerate in my response. I actually took you for a leftie given your comments on property developers  ;). Given I've been in the property business for nearly 30 years, I was reacting to the generalisation of property developers being money grabbing robbers. Most of the ones I know are professional people who invest and re-invest their own money. Sure they gear up with finance from other sources (usually banks) but I guarantee you if a development doesn't work, the bank gets their money out first.

Furthermore they generally employ a lot of people either directly or indirectly. That said, Donald has said a lot of stupid things regarding this development that haven't been held up to scrutiny either by government or the press.

Patrick

Trump trying to make a profit is quite acceptable in my book. Making nonsense claims with regards to the economic impact of the development to justify why planners should grant him planning permission should at the very least be challenged as Sean says. BTW, it entirely feasible for Trump to get his sums wrong on this one with the development turning in a loss, but at the same time the economic impact being quite significant, so the two don't necessarily go hand in hand.

Niall

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #36 on: January 20, 2012, 05:22:25 PM »
bad timing:  heavy snow in Chicago now/tonite
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Richard Phinney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #37 on: January 20, 2012, 05:59:04 PM »


The sums stated are almost irrelevant.
Whether it's $ 200,000,000 or $ 400,000,000 or $ 600,000,000 or $ 1,000,000,000, that's a lot of money to invest in a project.

So the question remains, irrespective of whether Trump invested $ 1,000,000 or $ 1,000,000,000, he's looking for that investment to be profitable, to have it generate a satisfactory return on his investment, and if it's profitable for him, that means it's a successful enterprise, which means that it's successful for the economy.



I think this is what a lot of people in Aberdeen initially thought, but not sure I can agree with that, and I think many locals have changed their views.  The numbers that the Trump Organisation throw around may well be out by gigantic proportions. Lets keep things in perspective.  He has built a golf course, at this point nothing more.

1) just yesterday, a member of the Trump organization told the Guardian  they had already spent 160 million dollars - that's on a single golf course, on links land, no clubhouse. I wonder how close the members of this site, who know how much a course costs to build, think this is to reality.
2) At a press conference, when confronted with the fact that the contractor building the course was Irish, using workers flown in and out again, Donald Trump said "hundreds" of local people had been employed planting marram grass, and that was a "big job" .  A freedom of information request by the Herald newspaper in Glasgow found that a dozen unskilled labourers had been hired for a few weeks to plant grass (this was in the police files since they were concerned about security).
3) A senior pro-development economist at the London School of Economics looked at the jobs created projections and said they were fantastical  - Aberdeen has one of the lowest unemployment rates in Europe and most of the low-paid workers would come from outside the country. He said the real number would be "closer to zero" than the number the Trump Organisation projected.

THe project is in fact, massively subsidized by the government, to the tune of millions upon millions of dollars, since  the government has given Trump planning permission in an area of natural beauty where no planning permission of this kind was ever supposed to be given. With that planning permission, the potential value of the property (and profits for Trump) has risen tremendously even if he never put a spade in the ground . (remember much of the development  is for luxury housing for rich Scots which could be built elsewhere by local developers if there is demand).  The loss to the Scottish people of a piece of vitally untouched natural coastline, of importance to science as one of the last of its kind, is permanent and less easy to quantity..   But I forget, Mr Trump also says he has "great support from environmental groups" a statement so contrary to actual fact that it simply beggars belief. It's not hard to make the argument that the economic benefit to the area would have been much great in the medium to long term if Mr Trump had never set foot on the property.


And yes, the culprit here is also the Scottish government, which aspires for independence, and they should be held accountable for it. 

BTW, Anthony Baxter, the director of You've Been Trumped is on the Rosie O'donnell Show tonight at 7pm (6 pm Central) on the OWN network, and they will be showing some clips from the film.

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #38 on: January 20, 2012, 06:04:53 PM »

THe project is in fact, massively subsidized by the government, to the tune of millions upon millions of dollars,


Richard,
please provide evidence of that. I'd love to see it.
cheers,
MB,
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #39 on: January 21, 2012, 07:33:05 AM »
Marty

So would I. I could readily believe that they have had a helping hand however I doubt that the support would have been in the form of a straight cash injection. I imagine it might be more along the lines of them not paying anything like the planning gain that they should have and indeed I seem to recall that they got a soft deal from the Council on land that was going to be used for access. That deal would likely have been done on Economic Development grounds which is fair enough but its still as ubsidy if they paid less than market value or what the Council could have got if they had been "commercial".

Richard

Thanks for your latest post. It articulates much better what I was trying to say in other posts. With regards to the $160 million dollar spend claim, I'd be interested to find out what there conversion rate was. Apart from the cost of building the course, there would be the basic land cost. I have a vague recollection that £13m several years ago, could be wrong but its a matter of public record and would be easy to look up. Even taking into account interest and the small fortune in consultancy fees that they have already incurred, its very hard to see how they are anywhere near spending $160m even with a 2 to 1 currency rate which we haven't had for quite some time.

Niall

John Chilver-Stainer

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Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #40 on: January 21, 2012, 01:04:32 PM »
Don’t forget Donald’s hourly rate and personal transport? 

 A snip when compared to Air Force One and the President’s trip to India as reported by Fox News!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7o0jUknE3SM

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #41 on: January 21, 2012, 01:17:13 PM »
"A snip when compared to Air Force One and the President’s trip to India as reported by Fox News!!!"

John C-S,  

I trust you realize those figures reported by Fox News were totally wrong and not even in the ballpark.

http://www.factcheck.org/2010/11/ask-factcheck-trip-to-mumbai/

DT  
« Last Edit: January 21, 2012, 01:18:54 PM by David_Tepper »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #42 on: January 21, 2012, 01:21:50 PM »
Niall,

I don't know enough about the project to make specific statements, but, I do have a number of questions.

Was there an acquisition cost for the land ?
If so, how much ?

How utilized was the land prior to the acquisition ?  For nature hikes and recreational purposes ?
I ask that in the following context.
In 1844 a local carpet factory was built right on the river running next to it, obviously the river was a source of power and water for the mill.
What started out as a small factory became a much larger facility over time and more buildings were added.
Then in the latter part of the 20th century, the business fell on hard times and the factory/mill closed in 1982.
The plant was vandalized and became a general nuisance and eyesore.

So, a developer purchased the land around 1990 and proposed converting the brick mill structures to condos.
In addition, he wanted to build a nine (9) story high rise overlooking the river.

Certainly the project would create construction and trade jobs and ongoing jobs associated with the residents of 330 condos.

The town would gain a ratable for taxes probably far exceeding what they lost when the plant closed.

A great many in the town and nearby area favored the proposed project.

But wait.
Others opposed it.
Some claimed that the 9 story building would be an eyesore on the landscape.
Forget that the run down mill with numerous deteriorating buildings was a horrendous eyesore.
Others claimed that "traffic" would become a problem.
Never mind that trucks were constantly delivering materials and picking up the finished products.
Never mind that the former employees used to drive to the mill every day.
Others claimed that it would deprive residents, near and far, of their ability to view this site.
(there was a small dam which created a nice waterfall after good rains or snowmelt.
Never mind that as private property, a fenced in factory, visitors/outsiders were previously prohibited.
Never mind that for safety reasons the fenced in property kept most outsiders out.
The objectors claimed that it was the right of the citizens, near and far, to have access to the views of the river/dam.

Fortunately, the project proceeded, with some minor concessions, including access to a viewing platform overlooking the river/dam.

22 years later, the former mill is probably 100 % occupied and greatly enhances the local economy.

So, are the objections to the project valid or agenda driven ?

If the project is completed as initially planned, will there be NO local jobs, no improvement to the local economy.

Who will build the homes ?
Who will build the hotel ?
Who will build the clubhouse ?

Who will staff, supply and service those facilities and their occupants ?
Locals or people flown in from far away places ?

I wonder, if another developer was involved, how strenuous the opposition would be.

I can only tell you that the Trump projects I've experienced, golf courses and high rise residences, are all built and run, first class.
The quality of those projects is very high.

So, I have to ask, exactly what are you and others opposed to ?

The man or the project or both ?

If it's the man, there's no counter arguement to disuade you otherwise as personality clashes aren't usually based on facts.

If it's the project, and if the project is built as planned, what's your objection ?

A tasteful and fabulous golf course.
A tasteful and fabulous hotel ?
Tasteful and fabulous single family residences ?
Wide spread employment for the future ?

I don't get it.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #43 on: January 21, 2012, 01:22:33 PM »
Apologies Lou, I should have been more considerate in my response. I actually took you for a leftie ....

No apologies needed.  On second thought, I'll accept them for your misperception.  Me a "leftie"?  I'd prefer being labeled a pervert.

Is Trump given to a bit of hyperbole?  Sure, but in comparison to most "lefties", his is with the precision of a fine Swiss watch.

I find Richard's comments: "the government has given Trump planning permission in an area of natural beauty where no planning permission of this kind was ever supposed to be given", and the "millions upon millions of dollars" of value he imputes rather amusing.    They appear to betray a religious-like fervor to government as an all-knowing, all-good God who understands the needs of all its children and comes up with an inviolate, perfect balance.  It follows that the scientists on the government payroll who determined the scientific uniqueness and value of the area were directly inspired by this greatest knowledge, while those hired by Trump were animated by the basest of greed- the need for a paycheck to feed their families (a better alternative than going on the dole?).

Perhaps it is different in the UK, but land use laws, codes, rules, etc. where I live were created at some points in time, historically, by local governments, to be applicable until someone with the political heft and an alternative perspective is able to change them.  These changes happen every day- a scarce few are for "ever".

The struggle between private property rights and the so-called "public good" is ongoing, but perhaps not yet lost to the Statists on this side of the pond.  Richard appears to place a very high value on communal rights and undeveloped, moving sand dunes.  Others may see superior beauty and a more fulfilling use of mostly private property in a golf resort and housing for "the rich".

It appears that the latter vision prevailed in Scotland this time.  But let's give the Left its due; it never gives up.  As our own icon of the Left remarked in defeat "... the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."  Very uplifting indeed, particularly if the trust fund affords the limo waiting to take you to your private jet to fly you to an airport to catch a lift on a helicopter to drop you by your large private family compound to hop on your multi-million $ yacht.  Not so much if you’re motivated to work to put food on the table on your own accord and retain some sense of dignity as a productive human being.  BTW, is there a movie on this alternative view of the world?  Can we announce its screening on this site?  Maybe not.

Richard Phinney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #44 on: January 21, 2012, 01:30:56 PM »

THe project is in fact, massively subsidized by the government, to the tune of millions upon millions of dollars,


Richard,
please provide evidence of that. I'd love to see it.
cheers,
MB,

Sorry, I don't mean to indicate there was a cash subsidy.  What I mean is that by overturning their own environmental laws, the government has hugely enhanced the value of the Trump property, which works as a kind of  subsidy - a huge one - to the project. And local people have paid for this by losing access to the coastline, by losing a valuable natural asset, and by the depletion of scientific knowledge of their environment which will be increasingly important as climate change impacts on erosion.

Obviously Patrick and Lou have their own point of view on developments like this in general, and that's absolutely fine.   The point of the film is  to show that the citizens of Scotland  were simply not informed of the facts when the project was approved.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #45 on: January 21, 2012, 01:45:20 PM »
Richard,

Have the people lost access to the coastline ?

In my limited experience with golf courses in Scotland, I observed non golfers roaming the course and coastline, with their dogs.

How has that luxury been lost ?

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #46 on: January 21, 2012, 02:10:06 PM »
Apologies Lou, I should have been more considerate in my response. I actually took you for a leftie ....

No apologies needed.  On second thought, I'll accept them for your misperception.  Me a "leftie"?  I'd prefer being labeled a pervert.

Is Trump given to a bit of hyperbole?  Sure, but in comparison to most "lefties", his is with the precision of a fine Swiss watch.

I find Richard's comments: "the government has given Trump planning permission in an area of natural beauty where no planning permission of this kind was ever supposed to be given", and the "millions upon millions of dollars" of value he imputes rather amusing.    They appear to betray a religious-like fervor to government as an all-knowing, all-good God who understands the needs of all its children and comes up with an inviolate, perfect balance.  It follows that the scientists on the government payroll who determined the scientific uniqueness and value of the area were directly inspired by this greatest knowledge, while those hired by Trump were animated by the basest of greed- the need for a paycheck to feed their families (a better alternative than going on the dole?).

Perhaps it is different in the UK, but land use laws, codes, rules, etc. where I live were created at some points in time, historically, by local governments, to be applicable until someone with the political heft and an alternative perspective is able to change them.  These changes happen every day- a scarce few are for "ever".

The struggle between private property rights and the so-called "public good" is ongoing, but perhaps not yet lost to the Statists on this side of the pond.  Richard appears to place a very high value on communal rights and undeveloped, moving sand dunes.  Others may see superior beauty and a more fulfilling use of mostly private property in a golf resort and housing for "the rich".

It appears that the latter vision prevailed in Scotland this time.  But let's give the Left its due; it never gives up.  As our own icon of the Left remarked in defeat "... the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."  Very uplifting indeed, particularly if the trust fund affords the limo waiting to take you to your private jet to fly you to an airport to catch a lift on a helicopter to drop you by your large private family compound to hop on your multi-million $ yacht.  Not so much if you’re motivated to work to put food on the table on your own accord and retain some sense of dignity as a productive human being.  BTW, is there a movie on this alternative view of the world?  Can we announce its screening on this site?  Maybe not.


Let's not make this a "left" or "right" issue.

At the very least, Trump has been a very poor representative of Americans, in fact a perfect representative of the "ugly" American.
I'm all for golf courses, and I'd agree with Lou that often a golf course is going to allow more people to enjoy a scenic/natural area, particularly if walking/beach access is granted to the public.
But putting it on his distasteful TV show and making public rude comments about resisting locals is hardly helping his image,
Furthermore, his resistance to Scotland's attempts at alternative energy are certainly politically incorrect, if not downright incorrect.
If the enviromentalist resistance can accept him destroying a rare and fragile ecosystem he can at least tolerate a distant distraction which will also creat jobs and help solve an ongoing worldwide problem.
He doesn't care about his image and relishes his bufoonness, but I'd say let's not make him a representative of our country or of the right or left.
I've got plenty of strong right veiws and I don't endorse him or this project (under his leadership)

It could've been win win, instead it's just ugly
« Last Edit: January 21, 2012, 02:12:20 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #47 on: January 21, 2012, 02:30:23 PM »
Lou D. -

The irony of this situation is that you are embracing the very "statist" outcome you abhor, especially if you believe that governmental issues are best handled/decided on a local or regional level and not by dictates from a national or federal government.

Yet that is exactly what has happened here. The local/regional governments of the Aberdeen area, following legally established procedures, decided the Trump project should not be allowed.

That decision was then overruled by the national government of Scotland, invoking dubious claims of "the national interest." My guess is, if the same thing happened in Texas, you would be appalled.

P.S. If there was a market for a documentary about the evils of green energy, wouldn't there be one? ;)

DT
 



   

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #48 on: January 21, 2012, 03:09:01 PM »
Neill, I will be hard pressed to say anything negative about a man who invests his own money and stays close to the facts on his claims. I do this on Oil and Gas investments and have many friends who do the same as well in real estate development, agriculture, forestry and many other avenues of commerce. The Trumps of the word exist everywhere as you know. They promote, overstate and do whatever they have to for their ends no matter the rules or the the right and wrong. The ends justify the means. I have very little respect for that type of person no matter how much success or lack there of he has. Trump may have used his own money here or on other projects. There is absolutely no way he has spent 16 million much less 160 million anything on this deal to date. There is a corporate welfare aspect to this deal, but I certainly do not know how much and in what forms. There are likely investors like in most of his deals. I am so pleased he has stayed out of Louisiana and my beloved Pebble Beach/SF. I am sad he has gone to Scotland to let them have to be exposed to his special brand of business. They have enjoyed enough abuse from the English over history.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Donald Trump "Golf Film" Debuts in Chicago on Friday
« Reply #49 on: January 21, 2012, 03:35:16 PM »
I can handle being caricatured as a right-wing reactionary . . .

Nobody could do a better job caricaturing Lou than Lou himself.
_______________________________________________________



Whatever the actual merits of the project, Trump could not be a worse ambassador for the game.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

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