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John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
We already have a tweaker, the Nicklaus course.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
John,

In answer to your thread question...no time.

It either is or it isn't.

but the course has to live up to the routing before anything can be judged...don't you think?

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
I don't know if there is such a thing as the finest routing in the world.  A routing [or a golf course] can really only be declared the best for that given site -- and even then, it will never be anywhere close to unanimous.  The one I've always cited as being impossible to beat is Merion (East) ... there just doesn't seem to be any other way to put that puzzle together, but that's because the property lines were tailored to fit around it over time.



Hey Tom,

Can I call you in as expert witness next time Merion throwdown breaks out?

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Jim,

No, the routing is just a part of the design.  You need some history to be the greatest course of all time. I don't see that happening.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
No, I agree they are separate. I clumsily tried to say the course has to be finished before the routing can be judged in my opinion. I know Tom said he's not changing anything in the routing now but the holes do matter to the routing, don't they?

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Jim,

I've played all 18 holes. I understand, but have not seen, a magazine article details the day.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
OK.

As with all this stuff, for me it comes back to playing the game.

You didn't play a course, you walked through a framed out building.

If it doesn't improve by putting on a roof it's not what you thought.

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
We already have a tweaker, the Nicklaus course.

I was not suggesting that Tom Doak is a "tweaker" -- but from what he's said, about this routing and elsewhere, he's a confirmed self-tweaker.

It's not often you'll find someone who can edit his own work, but he might be that rara avis.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2012, 04:40:36 PM by Dan Kelly »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
OK.

As with all this stuff, for me it comes back to playing the game.

You didn't play a course, you walked through a framed out building.

If it doesn't improve by putting on a roof it's not what you thought.

Jim,

What you probably have forgot is that the first time I played the Nicklaus course there also were not holes in the green.  They had just prepared the course for winter and we played with neither holes nor pins.  At least on the Doak course we had pins.  I believe that if you have tees, bunkers, fairways and greens you have a course.  The only thing missing is maintenance which is why we did cheat and play lift clean and place. 

My office was flooded three times last year so I still do not have carpet.  It is still my office.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1

I was not suggesting that Tom Doak is a "tweaker" -- but from what he's said, about this routing and elsewhere, he's a confirmed self-tweaker.

It's not often you'll find someone who can edit his own word, but he might be that rara avis.


Dan:

I think you had it right in your previous post.  I've always compared it to whittling away at things, but what am really doing in the routing, and throughout the construction process, is editing the land itself.  Usually, that's what God did, and that's why I am at my best on great land as opposed to courses that have to be created from thin air.  But I'm known to be a pretty good editor of my associates' contributions as well.

I am very good at editing my own words [given a bit of time to let the thoughts gel] -- I got that from my mom, I think.  I am pretty bad at editing other people's words, it just drives me crazy that they don't think the same way I do.  I've had to work at getting my associates to make suggestions on routings.  At critical points, their help can be very valuable in getting my thinking out of a rut, but most of them have faith that I'll figure it all out and they are afraid of getting in the way.  I don't think I've ever gone ballistic on them like Steve Jobs, but I've been known to dismiss others' ideas pretty quickly -- usually because I explored the same idea already, and figured out the place two holes later where they run into a dead end.  I'm not so good at explaining myself and avoiding hurting someone's feelings over that kind of stuff, even though I'm better than I used to be.


JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0

My office was flooded three times last year so I still do not have carpet.  It is still my office.


I'd tweak its routing then...

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
It's not often you'll find someone who can edit his own word, but he might be that rara avis.

Tom --

Thanks. As you'll notice, while you were posting, I ... edited myself! I had meant "work," not "word."

Mini-haha.

Dan
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Keith OHalloran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Chris,
In light of the routing story, and the naming situation, I have a suggestion. Perhaps you could name the Nicklaus course "The Egg" and the Doak course " The Chicken".  This would allow you to answer the two most perplexing philisophical questions in history.
1. Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
2. Why did the chicken cross the road?

And yes, it is cold today in NY and I have too much time on my hands!

Chris Johnston

  • Karma: +0/-0
Keith...Not bad...not bad at all!

Wonder what the "Chef" thinks.

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Tom D & Chris J,

Thanks for taking the time to share those stories. There's nothing better than reading about how courses actually come to be from the people responsible for them.

Reading Tom's post reminded me of watching the montage of him recreating the process of routing Old Mac on Michael Robin's film. Would have been cool to be a fly on the Polaris Ranger for those couple of days.

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Tom D & Chris J,
Would have been cool to be a fly on the Polaris Ranger for those couple of days.

Not as cool as you might think.  It's not exactly a safe vehicle in some hands.  And CJ tried to leave a very talented young intern alone in the river bottom late one afternoon after a "bridge" crossing as well.  I asked to be a "fly on the wall" of the Polaris and was made to run up and down dunes on mere whims of fancy when Don and Brian were laying irrigation lines out.  The Ranger was a dangerous place to be.   ;D

Chris Johnston

  • Karma: +0/-0
I thought I did the bridge well, young Captain.  Never even got the Ranger on two wheels.  Three maybe, but never two.  The wounded bull was far more of a concern.

That was a fun time!

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