[Bill_McBride]

Here is how I played hole #2 @ North Berwick. Made par!


Love the No OB and the ladder to access beach.

Mike, see my post 17, that's the shot I had too!   Is your caddy on the line?   Mine was, trusting soul!

[Scott Warren]

For me there's a bit of a distinction. I think this type of over-beach drive can work better with the beach as OOB:



Than this kind, where the risk/heroism of the drive is greater and the beach being OOB makes you really rein it in. IMO, this would be far better as hazard rather than OOB:

[Danny Brassil]

I believe the club could mark it as lateral water hazard the declare it an environmentally sensitive area thus prohibited entry in to and play from the beach and rocks.

you are correct Lou, I know at Old Head on 8 of the holes that border cliffs we have red hazard lines but players are prohibited from even crossing the lines.These areas are environmentally sensitive but are also extremely dangerous with 300ft sheer drops in most cases so the insurance companies insist on this practice.Another example is the 18th at Waterville where you cannot play from over the hazard line alyhough that may have more to do with the protection work being done to the rock face between the beach and dunes.

[Mark Provenzano]

Regarding CPC, I have no idea how old this scorecard scan below is, but it appears at one point the beach was not considered a hazard at all:

[Lou Cutolo]

I guess they can do whatever they want but 33-2a/8 states:

Treating Ocean and Beach as Through the Green

There is no authority in the Rules for a Committee to treat the ocean and adjoining beach and rocks as through the green.
Such treatment results in a more severe penalty in many instances than is the case if the ocean, beach and rocks are properly defined as a water hazard or lateral water hazard.

[Gary Slatter]

I found the  beach at Crail Balcomie, and was annoyed to find it was OB.  I played it both times, although I recorded an X for betting purposes.  The shot from a beach is one of golf`s fun shots.

[BDuryee]

I believe the club could mark it as lateral water hazard the declare it an environmentally sensitive area thus prohibited entry in to and play from the beach and rocks.

This is the way Prouts Neck plays it.

[Bill_McBride]

And the difference is................?

For me there's a bit of a distinction. I think this type of over-beach drive can work better with the beach as OOB:



Than this kind, where the risk/heroism of the drive is greater and the beach being OOB makes you really rein it in. IMO, this would be far better as hazard rather than OOB:

[Lou Cutolo]

OB is a stroke and distance penalty you must play from a spot from which the original ball was played, as a lateral hazard you have other options

[Dale Jackson]

I believe the club could mark it as lateral water hazard the declare it an environmentally sensitive area thus prohibited entry in to and play from the beach and rocks.

A golf course has no authority to unilaterally declare an area as an Environmentally Sensitive Area (ESA).  ESA is used if a government authority mandates an area lying in or next to a golf course to require protection.  For example, if a local government authority declares fish-bearing streams running through a course to be protected areas, the course should declare those streams and a buffer to be ESA.

A course cannot, under the Rules of Golf, unilaterally declare an area to be ESA merely because it wishes to prohibit entry.  Of course, there are many examples around the world where courses have marked ESA without the dictates of a government agency but that is not consistent with the rules.

The worst/funniest example I have personally seen is a course that declared an area to be ESA and then promptly sprayed the whole area with Round Up to kill all the vegetation.

[Lou_Duran]

I am somewhat familiar with the left side of CPC's #16.  I made the mistake of going down to the cove without a club, found my ball in the sand with a realistic shot up the cliff to the large green, but by the time my caddie was able to get to me after tending to his other player, the ball was carried out into the ocean by a wave.  There are no boundaries around the hole; the cliff, beach, and the ocean are considered part of the course, or so I was told.  Even if you find the ball, unless you can hit it again, there is not a likely spot to take a legal drop.

Regarding ESAs, the then supt. at Spanish Bay had a few things to say about the hardly sensitive, common natives that he wasn't allow to touch without first obtaining permission.  Unlike most private sector agreements which typically contain the fair, commonsense condition: "permission shall not be unreasonably witheld", the CA regulatory authorities made it nearly impossible for him to make the course more playable by cutting back some  of the waist high junk around many of the playing areas.

[Scott Warren]

Bill,

IMO, the difference is that Crail's 4th and 5th turn a lot more sharply than the 2nd at North Berwick.

There is more to be gained by a heroic shot cutting the corner on the pair of Crail holes, and the beach being OOB messes with the balance of the risk/reward.

I'm not going to risk stroke and distance for that shot, but I would risk the ball finishing across a red line on the beach (even though you'd pretty well have to play it, because the ball would have crossed the hazard line just in front of the tee).

[Lou Cutolo]

Dale,
Upon farther research I was wrong even though the Committee or club can do whatever they want under the rules of golf they cannot declare an area environmentally sensitive, this must be done by an appropriate authority (i.e., the EPA) .

[Dale Jackson]

Dale,
Upon farther research I was wrong even though the Committee or club can do whatever they want under the rules of golf they cannot declare an area environmentally sensitive, this must be done by an appropriate authority (i.e., the EPA) .

Lou, I think it is a missing comma that can lead to a misreading of your post but to to be clear, while the Committee has considerable leeway in conducting a competition, its actions must always be consistent with the rules of golf.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill,

IMO, the difference is that Crail's 4th and 5th turn a lot more sharply than the 2nd at North Berwick.

There is more to be gained by a heroic shot cutting the corner on the pair of Crail holes, and the beach being OOB messes with the balance of the risk/reward.

I'm not going to risk stroke and distance for that shot, but I would risk the ball finishing across a red line on the beach (even though you'd pretty well have to play it, because the ball would have crossed the hazard line just in front of the tee).

You long knockers have to worry about such distinctions.  It never occurred to me that carrying the ocean at Crail might be possible!   I would personally always prefer that a body of water be designated a water hazard.    It may be that at Crail the beaches are OB because it would be so difficult to figure out where to drop after hitting one in the drink!   With OB you just reload.

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