[Edwin Roald]

In a thread started by Melvyn Hunter Morrow, where he asks us if we consider the 17th hole at The Old Course gimmicky, one contributor mentions that the shoreline on the 16th at Cypress Point is out of bounds, i.e. not defined as a lateral water hazard. This was news to me, and I have thus far both noticed, on the better oceanside courses I have seen, and assumed for the ones that I have yet to see, that the tendency is to define the beaches or clifftops as lateral hazards rather than O.B.

I believe in the lateral hazards to encourage risk-taking, where the angles are appropriate. I have suggested this on some existing courses. The clubs worry that red stakes, instead of white, will make play even slower than it is today. Sure, we must speed up play, but we also need to make the golf holes exciting, a la Mackenzie, who said "Water holes should tempt, not torture".

If not already discussed here before, it would be interesting to get an overview here on how this is done on the most notable seaside courses. Of course this will also apply to courses next to major lakes or rivers.

[Tom_Doak]

Edwin:

Not positive, but I suspect that the reason Cypress Point designates the ocean as out of bounds is not a Rules of Golf question but a safety / liability insurance question.  There are a couple of places on the hole [particularly long and left] where you can wind up on the beach and have a possible recovery shot, but getting down there to play it is dangerous, and there's also the danger of having your recovery shot rebound in your face if you skull it.  So, I would guess they want to minimize their liability exposure.

On all the coastal courses we've done, the edge of the golf course [be it a cliff or a dune or whatever] is marked as a lateral hazard -- which means you can take a drop, but also that you've got the option to go down there and try to play it if you want to.

[Eric Smith]

I believe in the lateral hazards to encourage risk-taking, where the angles are appropriate. I have suggested this on some existing courses. The clubs worry that red stakes, instead of white, will make play even slower than it is today. Sure, we must speed up play, but we also need to make the golf holes exciting, a la Mackenzie, who said "Water holes should tempt, not torture".

Edwin,

I agree with you and the Dr., though Kyle Henderson's photo of the 2nd at N. Berwick causes me to WANT TO hit it down on the beach. Simply gorgeous.

[Scott Stearns]

Are you certain of this treatment?  for many years the beach and water at Cypress was NOT OB--it was "Through the Green". 

This would result in the same treatment as OB for a ball lost on the rocks/in the water so i could see how people could get confused.

There was a Decision from the USGA in 1957 on the 16th at CPC, saying in effect saying that treating a water hazard as something else was fraught with rules-related peril.

[Mark Pearce]

Eric,

First time I played NBWL I made 4 from the beach. 

[James Boon]

I believe in the lateral hazards to encourage risk-taking, where the angles are appropriate. I have suggested this on some existing courses. The clubs worry that red stakes, instead of white, will make play even slower than it is today. Sure, we must speed up play, but we also need to make the golf holes exciting, a la Mackenzie, who said "Water holes should tempt, not torture".

Edwin,

I agree with you and the Dr., though Kyle Henderson's photo of the 2nd at N. Berwick causes me to WANT TO hit it down on the beach. Simply gorgeous.

Eric,

After seeing a playing partner make an awesome birdie from about the waters edge in that photo, I suspect the locals scrap over the monthly medal tee times nearest to low tide?

Joking aside, I cant help but wonder if on courses where the beach is treated as a lateral hazard the locals do in fact prefer timing their round that it will be low tide when they get to those holes?

Cheers,

James

[Pete_Pittock]

I think Pebble Beach has changed markings remembering historical anecdotes and film/video from Crosby's Clambake. Likewise the par 3 10th at Royal Dornoch

[Ben Jarvis]

Are you certain of this treatment?  for many years the beach and water at Cypress was NOT OB--it was "Through the Green". 

This would result in the same treatment as OB for a ball lost on the rocks/in the water so i could see how people could get confused.

There was a Decision from the USGA in 1957 on the 16th at CPC, saying in effect saying that treating a water hazard as something else was fraught with rules-related peril.

Scott,

During our round in July last year, my father hit his tee shot on 16 on the "beach" to left of the green. The caddie told him that he wasn't allowed to play or retrieve his ball.

[Scott Stearns]

 were there white stakes visible, and/or did a member say it was OB.  Fairly common for caddies to try to move things along with comments like this.  I've heard caddies at my own club repeat stories about the course that were both untrue and insane. 

Not doubting anybody.  trying to get to the bottom this.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Edwin,

I think most beaches are defined as OB in GB&I. I believe the reason is "fairness". Depending on when you play the hole, your ball could be either playable (when the tide is out) or not.

The beach on the 10th at Dunfanaghy is OB.

[Ben Jarvis]

were there white stakes visible, and/or did a member say it was OB.  Fairly common for caddies to try to move things along with comments like this.  I've heard caddies at my own club repeat stories about the course that were both untrue and insane. 

Not doubting anybody.  trying to get to the bottom this.

I couldn't recall seeing any stakes. I've just looked back on the photos I took and this confirms that. Perhaps a local rule but I'm not certain.

[Brian_Ewen]

As I well know, the beach at Cruden Bay is very much in play !

[Adam Clayman]

One of the former asst.'s at PG said long and left of the 16th @ CPC was an illegal situation, citing the nearest drop as Hawaii. I assume it is suppose to be a yellow staked water hazard, not a red staked riparian.

[Tom_Doak]

One of the former asst.'s at PG said long and left of the 16th @ CPC was an illegal situation, citing the nearest drop as Hawaii. I assume it is suppose to be a yellow staked water hazard, not a red staked riparian.

Adam:

Actually LONG and left of 16 at Cypress is in deep water, I think.  The balls that might be playable are short and left, on the beach.  And I think there's probably a legal drop there, somewhere along #17 fairway.

The more important issue is whether you can play it off the beach.  O.B. precludes that.  I played from down there back up to the green once, when I was about 17 years old ... one of the more memorable golf shots of my life.  But it is a dangerous play, with rock in front of you if you don't get the ball up in the air quick enough.

[Stewart Naugler]

Left or short left of the green there's a beach, long and left is in deep water.

Left or short left-

[Adam Clayman]

Tom, That would be a great memory. On my one and only, I witnessed the double Hale Irwin on 17. My partner hit it in the rocks twice and made par.

[Brad Tufts]

I believe in the lateral hazards to encourage risk-taking, where the angles are appropriate. I have suggested this on some existing courses. The clubs worry that red stakes, instead of white, will make play even slower than it is today. Sure, we must speed up play, but we also need to make the golf holes exciting, a la Mackenzie, who said "Water holes should tempt, not torture".

Edwin,

I agree with you and the Dr., though Kyle Henderson's photo of the 2nd at N. Berwick causes me to WANT TO hit it down on the beach. Simply gorgeous.

Eric,

After seeing a playing partner make an awesome birdie from about the waters edge in that photo, I suspect the locals scrap over the monthly medal tee times nearest to low tide?

Joking aside, I cant help but wonder if on courses where the beach is treated as a lateral hazard the locals do in fact prefer timing their round that it will be low tide when they get to those holes?

Cheers,

James

During my first and only play at north berwick this past summer, I was set up to hit my moonshot downwind off the 2nd tee.  When I was about to pull the driver back, two 6-yr old kids popped their heads up just right of that second red stake just in front of the tee box.  Almost had a heart attack at the ridiculously bad situation that almost was...

[Bill_McBride]

Edwin:

Not positive, but I suspect that the reason Cypress Point designates the ocean as out of bounds is not a Rules of Golf question but a safety / liability insurance question.  There are a couple of places on the hole [particularly long and left] where you can wind up on the beach and have a possible recovery shot, but getting down there to play it is dangerous, and there's also the danger of having your recovery shot rebound in your face if you skull it.  So, I would guess they want to minimize their liability exposure.

On all the coastal courses we've done, the edge of the golf course [be it a cliff or a dune or whatever] is marked as a lateral hazard -- which means you can take a drop, but also that you've got the option to go down there and try to play it if you want to.

A pro named Porky Oliver was famous for taking 19 at the 16th, and some of it apparently involved several trips down to the beach.  Perhaps the OB is a pace of play issue as a result!

Interestingly, two famous courses in Scotland take opposite approaches to beaches and OB.   #2 at North Berwick, the ocean is a lateral, the beach is in play.   My favorite shot ever at NB was a six iron off the beach, blind, onto the green for a par.    By contrast, the ocean is OB at Crail Balcomie # 4 and 5.   

[Kalen Braley]

I can also see why courses would choose to have OB next to beaches if they were heavily populated.

An OB stake always make me be a fair bit more careful than a red stake...

[Lou Cutolo]

I believe the club could mark it as lateral water hazard the declare it an environmentally sensitive area thus prohibited entry in to and play from the beach and rocks.

[Sean Leary]

I hit one left on 16 and was told I needed to re-tee as there was no drop. Hit it there again and made X.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I have hit the ball on the beach left of 16 twice and played it up both times. My caddie said nothing other than good shot on the play up. The cement steps down to the beach must be there for a reason was my thinking. I climbed down the hard way to play of the beach on 10 at Pebble. That was a first and last time for that.  Adam I am a bit confused. There is a point of land you cross to get to that water or beach as it be. There are certainly plenty of places to drop within the rules of a yellow or red marking. Naturally I do not remember what color if any is there.

[Stewart Naugler]

It depends who you're playing with honestly, if you're playing in the hook and eye you wouldn't be playing it off the beach.

[Jason Topp]

I hate it when the beach is marked ob.  I understand it must be done in some cases but in Ireland it seemed to be standard to do so.   

[Mike Hogan]

Here is how I played hole #2 @ North Berwick. Made par!


Love the No OB and the ladder to access beach.

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