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ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bobby Jones on strategic golf
« Reply #100 on: January 21, 2002, 11:21:25 AM »
Tom:

I like option 2 for #18 at NGLA but I'll let YOU be the one to suggest it to the powers-that be!  It is an excellent idea, though.  I was thinking less creatively in terms of a 2nd and 3rd bunker just past the big one you can see - thereby making the first primary hazard "uncarryable" without creating some horrid looking monster pit.

Sounds like your Gulfstream example used to be what I'd like #16 at Garden City to become.  Sounds like Dick Wilson agrees with Shivas - let the mighty rule!

Chip
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Bobby Jones on strategic golf
« Reply #101 on: January 21, 2002, 11:39:35 AM »
shivas,

Are you Matt Ward's brother?  ???
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Bobby Jones on strategic golf
« Reply #102 on: January 21, 2002, 12:50:05 PM »
shivas;

First, thanks for taking my good-natured ribbing in the fun spirit it is intended on your thread.  

And, I enjoy having this debate.  

What I don't understand is your contention that the ability to apply major force to a golf ball somehow translates into that person being a better golfer...I just don't accept that premise.  

I can drive the ball a bit past Tom Paul for instance (sorry, Tom), but he is a far superior player to me in almost every other respect.  I know other guys who can blast it by me who I'll beat 9 out of 10 times.  

Still, although I think I disagree with the premise on which you base your questions, I will try to answer each.

Should the architect "dumb down" the course so that reverse discrimination takes place between the man who hits it "with force" and those who hit it "with limp wrists" (sorry, couldn't resist)?

Nope, I think the architect should strive to make the hole play interestingly, and challenging for both men.  Perhaps if you define some of the ways in which you think modern architects are keeping the shorter hitting man in the game, I might understand what you are trying to get at.  Are you telling me that if you drive the ball 300 yards and your competitor hits it about 220, and you both play from the back tees, that he is somehow being compensated by the architect along the way?  Are you saying that you don't already gain a HUGE advantage by virtue of your length over him?

Should the architect give a clear strategic advantage to the expert ballstriker, (not distance based).  Well, once again you are mixing length with ballstriking ability, but I think architects do this quite often, and quite appropriately so.  Augusta, pre-2001 is a good example of this, where the man who can carry to the deep left side of the 10th gets another 50 yards or so of roll, while the fella who can't make that carry sits back up on the hill.  However, I also like to see holes like the 6th at Hawk Pointe that i cited earlier where the guy who thoughtlessly blasts away often finds himself in a worse position (albeit much closer to the green) than the thoughtful player who lays back to full-club range for the approach.  To me, variety that encourages players of all distances to THINK is what good design should be about.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Bobby Jones on strategic golf
« Reply #103 on: January 21, 2002, 01:42:14 PM »
shivas,

I agree.  I think every course needs a "couple" of holes where a long drive gives a strategic advantage beyond just length.  I'm all in favor of variety, and you provided some good examples.  

I've provided links to them below;

http://www.destinationkohler.com/bwr/rivercourse12.html

http://www.destinationkohler.com/bwr/rivercourse11.html

We're getting closer here, shivas, but what exactly is wrong with that "insane" little pot bunker?  I think it's perfect!

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: Bobby Jones on strategic golf
« Reply #104 on: January 21, 2002, 02:01:02 PM »
I just had to chime in since the discussion has turned to the subject of distance.

As someone who hits the ball a decent ways off the tee ( ;D )I'm always interested in seeing how architects today deal with the subject of power.

Too many designs deal with power by narrowing in the landing zones to such an extent that you have for all intents and purposes "taken the driver out of one's hands" -- especially the longer hitters. To have this happen on maybe one or two holes is fine, but when it becomes the standard feature of a course you have a problem of fairness and understanding of where power falls in the game. This would be no different than having forced carries of 240 yards or more with water everywhere. Clearly, the shorter hitter would cry foul because there are no other options except to land in Davey Jones locker.

Mike, there are quite a few contributors to GCA who wax on about the merits of 6,100 yard courses because, let's be honest, they don't have the wherewithal to handle longer courses that call for dextertity with long irons or even wood approaches -- ditto, hitting the driver with some pop on it. I'm not advocating completely what Shivas is arguing for, but distance is no less a part of the game than accuracy. I see them as equals -- I'm sure others weigh the balance towards the accuracy side -- so be it.

Mike -- you're example of the 6th at Hawk Pointe is a good one. I've driven the green from the tips on a coupe of occasions, but unless one can get it to the green or the fringe you are absolutely dead on target with your analysis. It's a well crafted hole -- public golf needs more of these types of holes. I also would like to mention the 18th at Hawk Pointe -- a classic power hole. Played from the absolute tips the strong player can take the tee shot directly at the farthest corner on line with the tree and leave himself a relatively short easy pitch. The weaker player must stay left or becomes wet.

Like you Mike, I favor courses that call for a combination of both elements. But, I do agree with Shivas, too much whining is done by those who can't hit the ball far. I'm amused that Palmer and Nicklaus complain about how far the ball goes today, but 30 years ago when they were blowing tee shots way past competitors the game was just fine. Hello -- Anyone see a bit of inconsistency in the arguments!

I credit today's modern designers such as Doak -- i.e. the short 16th (338 yards) at Pac Dunes is another great example in testing the skills of all types of players when you give enough room to "tempt" the longer hitter to pull out the driver.

When I'm playing I play for score -- not for ego on club selection. If I don't sense some sort of gain from hitting the driver I'll automatically club down to a 3-wood or 1-iron to get the ball in play.

Balance is part of the game and modern designers in many cases / courses I have seen do try to fathom a remedy that keeps the game in "balance" even when different players have varying ways in playing the game. The bottom line -- to score well you must have a complete package in order to max out your opportunities -- long hitters know full well the woods are full of balls they have hit. At the same time those are "bunters" should try to understand that power is not just about some big lug firing away and therefore cease whining about al the "unfair" advantages long hitters have. On well designed courses the balancing elements are there for both styles. ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: Bobby Jones on strategic golf
« Reply #105 on: January 21, 2002, 02:04:35 PM »
Mike:

FYI -- Shivas is not my brother! ;D

Although I do enjoy his take on things ...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Bobby Jones on strategic golf
« Reply #106 on: January 21, 2002, 02:22:19 PM »
shivas,

But do you know it's there?  

You could always bail right, correct?  You do have options, you know.   ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bobby Jones on strategic golf
« Reply #107 on: January 21, 2002, 02:31:45 PM »
Shivas,

If you think that pot bunker at Blackwolf is insane? You'd be insane after playing The Old Course for the first time ( or maybe every time  :) ). I used to feel like you do--what, a bunker in the middle of the fairway, and blind at that?  ??? Sorry, I'm over that phase. Now things like that are just a part of strategic golf--when used in moderation, of course.

And remember, "They're only blind once, laddie..."
--Tommie Armour

All The Best,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Mike_Cirba

Re: Bobby Jones on strategic golf
« Reply #108 on: January 21, 2002, 03:38:58 PM »
shivas,

You just provided 7 reasons I hadn't even thought of when I said that bunker's location is "perfect".  Thanks! ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Bobby Jones on strategic golf
« Reply #109 on: January 21, 2002, 04:23:27 PM »
Matt:

I've been reading the last couples of posts on this thread with interest and in your 5:01pm post of today you say that taking the driver out of a long hitters hands is really an issue of fairness no different than 240yd carries everywhere so that the short hitter has no option but to land in Davy Jones's locker!

Surely you can't be serious? A short hitter has no chance at all but a long hitter has 14 clubs and can choose to use any number of them to resolve his problem! That's an issue of fairness akin to the short hitter's problem?

That ain't even close Matt!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bobby Jones on strategic golf
« Reply #110 on: January 13, 2012, 10:34:20 AM »
I was doing a little research on something and I came across this thread from 10 YEARS AGO!  It is a compelling discussion of strategy in golf course design (including, but not limited to, discussion of Cape and Leven holes) with erudite commentary from many of the scions of GCA.com (a number now gone from the site*). I commend it to the group both for the content and the tone of the discussion.

*There is mention of Tom Paul approaching the lofty number of 500 posts....   
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Willie_Dow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bobby Jones on strategic golf
« Reply #111 on: January 14, 2012, 11:18:24 AM »
Doug:  A great find !

How can we take comments out of the past and apply them to current conversations ?  It takes too much time to research some great thoughts and expressions on here, and use them to evaluate what time and change has contributed to thought.

Willie

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