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Melvyn Morrow

Would you call the 17th Road Hole on TOC gimmicky?
« on: January 13, 2012, 04:35:47 PM »
An interesting question was raised on another thread by a member of a well know design company that he thought the 17th Hole known as the Road Hole on TOC is Gimmicky.



Is this the general opinion of this site and of the designers on this site?

Melvyn
« Last Edit: January 13, 2012, 05:15:15 PM by Melvyn Hunter Morrow »

Gary Slatter

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Re: Would you call the 17th Road Hole on TOC gimmicky?
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2012, 04:51:01 PM »
as a consumer and not a designer I find the 17th a perfect par 4.5.  my only complaint is the rough on the left, which slows the play down and annoys the older local players.   nothing gimmicky IMHO, historical, would love to have played it when the railway was nearby.
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you call the 17th Road Hole on TOC gimmicky?
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2012, 04:57:12 PM »
the tee shots over the garage is a little strange for some but outside of that, there's nothing wrong with it

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you call the 17th Road Hole on TOC gimmicky?
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2012, 05:09:50 PM »
I think any other golf hole on any other golf course that had not one, but two, unnatural man-made features figuring so prominently would indeed be dismissed as gimmicky.

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you call the 17th Road Hole on TOC gimmicky?
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2012, 05:18:45 PM »
I think any other golf hole on any other golf course that had not one, but two, unnatural man-made features figuring so prominently would indeed be dismissed as gimmicky.

+1

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Would you call the 17th Road Hole on TOC gimmicky?
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2012, 05:34:48 PM »

Gimmicky but by what definition, noting that it was there well before the majority of the courses were built, not just in Scotland, GB or the rest of the World.

It was designed and built and modified when there were less than 50 courses in the world. So gimmicky or a real test of golfing skills and courage, much missed or is that misunderstood by many owners and designers today. Clearly many and that includes golfer and designers do not know much about golf course in GB pre the 1880's. Noting the use of walls, dry stone walls, railway tracks, turf dykes and many more man made features were common place and use back then, so why would it be defined as gimmicky. Now sporty perhaps

Gimmicky for me is non walking courses, carts, cart tracks, utilising technology to improve scores as well as distance aids, not TOC which was the old course at the bottom of my dad's garden.

Melvyn

Anthony Gray

Re: Would you call the 17th Road Hole on TOC gimmicky?
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2012, 07:19:55 PM »
Not the original but maybe a duplicate.

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you call the 17th Road Hole on TOC gimmicky?
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2012, 08:36:14 PM »
I do not think the word gimmicky existed when the road hole was created by the hand of God. Man just step in a bit too close to it.

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you call the 17th Road Hole on TOC gimmicky?
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2012, 09:27:55 PM »
Melyvn,
Could you post a link to the other thread?  I'd love to read it, especially the original comment.
Thanks.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Mark Saltzman

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Re: Would you call the 17th Road Hole on TOC gimmicky?
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2012, 09:32:52 PM »

Frank M

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Re: Would you call the 17th Road Hole on TOC gimmicky? New
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2012, 10:38:57 PM »
100% gimmicky. Hitting a tee shot over a wall with the name of the golf course you are playing written in big bold lettering is a prime example of gimmicky.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2024, 08:44:45 PM by Frank M »

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you call the 17th Road Hole on TOC gimmicky?
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2012, 11:30:11 PM »
100% gimmicky.

Hitting a tee shot over a wall with the name of the golf course you are playing (not exact but as similar as possible) written in big bold lettering is the prime example of gimmicky.

The problem seems to be the people who think gimmicky = bad.

So gimmicky...Yes
Bad....No

Frank, was it gimmicky when those were railroad sheds?

Frank M

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you call the 17th Road Hole on TOC gimmicky? New
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2012, 12:42:08 AM »
I don't know the entire history of the 17th hole. TOC has developed over centuries and without going back to review its entire history, I cannot really speak to whether it WAS gimmicky.

As it stands, I don't think there is any doubt that it is gimmicky (at least as far as the wall is concerned). If the course were built right now and the wall was pre-existing, I think most would tend to agree with it being gimmicky.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2024, 08:42:38 PM by Frank M »

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you call the 17th Road Hole on TOC gimmicky?
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2012, 02:46:37 AM »
the thing I don't like in the current setup is how narrow the fairway is, especially from 150 yards in... short grass will open options to play it as a 3 shotter

A.G._Crockett

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Re: Would you call the 17th Road Hole on TOC gimmicky?
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2012, 07:31:43 AM »
Melvyn,
I read the other two threads, and couldn't find a post where anybody called the Road Hole gimmicky.  Help me out and post a link to the comment that you are referencing in the original post on this thread.
Thanks.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Would you call the 17th Road Hole on TOC gimmicky?
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2012, 07:51:51 AM »
AC

As requested

Reply #26  "You're right Melvyn, doesn't do the Road Hole justice. It's not as gimmicky."

Melvyn

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Would you call the 17th Road Hole on TOC gimmicky?
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2012, 08:31:02 AM »

Quirky and gimmicky are titles used by many on this site. I have been wondering why for years as I do not see quirky or gimmicky. Perhaps that’s because it’s been part of our game since man started designing courses, well before other countries even knew about the game.

The early designs incorporated many features both natural and man-made to promote the development of skill, so not quirky or gimmicky in any way. Because you cannot see these type of Holes in your part of the world, should you label them in this way, bearing in mind many of the feature mentioned over the years are older than the majority of courses in your part of the world. Perhaps by the time your course were built tastes had changed.

Rather than label these Holes with name, would it not be more productive for GCA to embrace them within your designs, ops, sorry some of you have already said that you can’t design courses in this way anymore.  Actually you can but do you want too, after all look at how many template holes are still being used, perhaps they are just less radical in the minds of the designers/owners who consider a 150 year old Hole gimmicky.

What is it with modern design, can’ think of anything else apart from surrounding Greens with a mass of bunkers or water, preferring to include templates in preference to Holes ideal/compatible with the land the course is being built upon.

In my opinion its quirky and rather gimmicky to see a course that does not a template Hole(s) or island Greens surrounded by either sand or water.

But then that’s just my opinion, be it right or wrong, who knows it’s all down to individual taste -  now is that not quirky perhaps verging on the gimmicky.

Melvyn 

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you call the 17th Road Hole on TOC gimmicky?
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2012, 12:17:50 PM »
17 at TOC = Quirky. 

Some may equate this to gimmick but I don't.  I see quirky as a positive and gimmicky as a negative.

Does anyone have any early pictures of it?  Perhaps we can see how its evolved over the years.....

Melyvn?

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you call the 17th Road Hole on TOC gimmicky?
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2012, 12:46:16 PM »
Can anyone think of a hole where you have to carry out of bounds directly in the line of play off the tee to put your ball in play? I seem to recall a par-3 on the front nine at Castlerock (Northern Ireland) that has OB between the tee and green, but is the only hole that comes to mind.

 

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you call the 17th Road Hole on TOC gimmicky?
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2012, 12:55:42 PM »
Can anyone think of a hole where you have to carry out of bounds directly in the line of play off the tee to put your ball in play? I seem to recall a par-3 on the front nine at Castlerock (Northern Ireland) that has OB between the tee and green, but is the only hole that comes to mind.

 

Cypress Point 16

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Would you call the 17th Road Hole on TOC gimmicky?
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2012, 01:13:01 PM »

Melvyn ? - Kalen Yes is the answer

Melvyn

Michael Blake

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you call the 17th Road Hole on TOC gimmicky?
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2012, 01:32:06 PM »
Melvyn, Melvyn, Melvyn,

My 'gimmicky' post was solely intended to get a rise out of you.  No substance to it.
I assumed that you would have asssumed as much, given my jabs at you in the past.

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you call the 17th Road Hole on TOC gimmicky?
« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2012, 01:48:03 PM »
Can anyone think of a hole where you have to carry out of bounds directly in the line of play off the tee to put your ball in play? I seem to recall a par-3 on the front nine at Castlerock (Northern Ireland) that has OB between the tee and green, but is the only hole that comes to mind.
Both the 4th and 5th holes at Balcomie require a drive over the beach, which is OOB.  The road crossing the 18th at Ganton is OOB, I think and must be crossed with your 2nd (or your drive, if you're long and brave).
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Bill_McBride

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Re: Would you call the 17th Road Hole on TOC gimmicky?
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2012, 02:07:51 PM »
Can anyone think of a hole where you have to carry out of bounds directly in the line of play off the tee to put your ball in play? I seem to recall a par-3 on the front nine at Castlerock (Northern Ireland) that has OB between the tee and green, but is the only hole that comes to mind.

 

"Lambchop" or "Porkchop" or something like that.    Great hole fraught with danger.   That's where Castlerock really gets going.   

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you call the 17th Road Hole on TOC gimmicky?
« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2012, 02:22:16 PM »
It's one of my favorite holes in golf.  It's also unique, often copied, never equaled.  I love it.
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