'Flow' at Pebble Beach

[Mark Saltzman]

On none of the first 7 holes is driver a requirement.  Of course bogies+ are a possibility on every hole, but on the first seven holes nothing more than a mid-iron approach is required.  To me, that is a long stretch of fairly easy holes.

The next 7 holes are a ball-busting, soul-taking stretch (views aside).  From 8-14, the golfer must hold on for dear life.  8-10 is one of the most difficult stretch of holes I've ever seen.  The only respite is at 13, but with one of the most difficult and sloping greens on the course, it is far from an easy hole.

To me, the flow of holes considers shot requirements (fade/draw/high/low), routing, interaction with the wind, range of clubs required... but at the end of the day, to me, the biggest part of flow is the the back-and-forth of easy, moderate and hard holes.

Is this a negative at Pebble? Is it part of what makes it great? How do you define 'flow', what do you look for?  Are there other renowned courses with similar stretches?

NB: This is not about whether or not the new 5th interrupts the flow at Pebble.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

When you make that statement, what tees are you referencing ?

[Jay Cox]

Patrick, from any tees, aren't 8, 9, and 10 the hardest three par 4s on the course, and isn't 14 the hardest par 5?

Anecdotally, my scoring average from the ~6850 yard set of tees reflects what Mark observed.  I'm even par or slightly better than that for the first six and slightly over par if you include seven, which I've made a complete hash of a couple of times.  I'm +6 per round or so on the next seven holes, with most of the damages coming at 9, 10, and 14.  And I'm somewhere between +1 and +2 per round for the closing stretch.

Part of the difference is length, but an even bigger factor, I think, is what happens once you get out of position.  In the opening stretch, you typically can recover.  In the middle stretch, except for 13, if you end up in the wrong place, you're toast unless you take your bitter medicine.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick, from any tees, aren't 8, 9, and 10 the hardest three par 4s on the course, and isn't 14 the hardest par 5?

That wasn't Mark's first statement.

In terms of the average to better golfer, playing from the back tees, I would imagine that a driver is required on # 3.
since two par 3's are amongst the first 7 holes they have to be eliminated.
If you want to get home in two on #'s 2 & 6 you need a driver off the tee.
# 4 is probably an iron/hybrid off the tee.
# 1 doesn't require a driver, but it may be the club of choice.

Anecdotally, my scoring average from the ~6850 yard set of tees reflects what Mark observed.  I'm even par or slightly better than that for the first six and slightly over par if you include seven, which I've made a complete hash of a couple of times.  I'm +6 per round or so on the next seven holes, with most of the damages coming at 9, 10, and 14.  And I'm somewhere between +1 and +2 per round for the closing stretch.
Nobody questions the difficulty of # 8, 9 & 10.

Part of the difference is length, but an even bigger factor, I think, is what happens once you get out of position.  In the opening stretch, you typically can recover.  In the middle stretch, except for 13, if you end up in the wrong place, you're toast unless you take your bitter medicine.
Length, can't of the fairways, heroic carries and flanking features (hazards & OB) combine to make 8-13/14 very difficult.

[Mark Saltzman]

Patrick,

I was not referencing any particular set of tees, but I guess I am talking about the back two tees.  Both times I have played the course I played the longest tees out, though they are shorter than the US Open tees. 

I am a short-hitter, or as JakaB called me, a pea-shooter.

On the first 7 holes, I hit:
1: 3W-8i
2:3W-5i-PW
3: 3W-8i
4: 4H-LW
5: 7i
6: D-3W-LW
7: SW

My point was not whether or not driver was needed on the first 7 holes, just that they are a long stretch of fairly easy holes.  And then the next 7 holes have very little let-up.

Given that sequencing is an important part of the quality of a golf course, I am surprised at these long stretches of easy and then hard holes.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

George Haines once described Merion as a three course meal.

He felt that you were eased into the course with a "kind" introduction.

While the same might be said of PB, if you play the back tees, you'll need a driver on the first third of the course if you want to maximize your scoring opportunities.

Unfortunately, hi-tech and land lock situations have conspired to make the first third more benign.

[Mark Saltzman]

Patrick,

Do you agree with that statement about Merion?  I have only played it once, but I do not think the sequencing is at all similar to PB's.

1-2 do provide a scoreable introduction, but 3 is a very difficult hole, as are 5 and 6.  There are no long stretches of holes that one could call easy, nor a stretch longer than 3 holes that one would call difficult (the closing stretch is the 3-hole stretch I am thinking of).

I believe the give-and-take of easy holes and hard holes are a part of what makes a good course great.  Merion does this phenomenally well.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

Yes, I agree with George Haines's description that Merion was a three course meal, with three distinct personalities or flavors.
1-6, 7-12 & 13-18.

[Mark Saltzman]

Mark,

Yes, I agree with George Haines's description that Merion was a three course meal, with three distinct personalities or flavors.
1-6, 7-12 & 13-18.

I don't see it, could you elaborate?