What is Prestwick lacking?

[Adrian_Stiff]

I would say it is not copied today. I might be wrong but I think our minimalists here would not include it by choice.

[Anthony Gray]

I would say it is not copied today. I might be wrong but I think our minimalists here would not include it by choice.

  Adrian look at the Old Mac thread.

  Anthony

[ChipOat]

Steve Salmen said it first: Prestwick lacks length.

Also, as others have pointed out, 1) many blind shots and 2) no way to hold a championship in the modern era.

Seminole, Garden City and Dornoch fit #2 (except for the 1985 British Am), but the courses, themselves, are so wonderful..............

[Melvyn Morrow]

Another great course screwed thanks to the R&A not understand how to control technology over the last 100 years.

Melvyn

[Jud_T]

Hot Beverage Cart Girls...

[Tom_Doak]

Steve Salmen said it first: Prestwick lacks length.

Also, as others have pointed out, 1) many blind shots and 2) no way to hold a championship in the modern era.

Seminole, Garden City and Dornoch fit #2 (except for the 1985 British Am), but the courses, themselves, are so wonderful..............

chipoat:

It's not the lack of length, or that they can't hold a championship there anymore.  As you rightly pointed out, Seminole, Garden City and Dornoch fail the same tests, and they're all ranked.  And lots of people said the same about Merion ...

I think Prestwick's disclusion from the rankings is almost entirely about the blind shots.  There are too many American panelists who can only stomach a maximum of one or two blind shots in a round of golf, for various reasons.  Prestwick also has one or two long holes where a long hitter would probably have to lay up off the tee, and the long hitters hate that!

[Melvyn Morrow]

Blind shots, are a wonderful test so why so many US guys against them? Many of us over here just love them and look forward to play previously un-played courses for the absolute challenge they offer.
What is going on with American Golf is you don't like blind shots, wow, can't understand why a golfer would not want to play against the unknown.

Melvyn

[Wade Schueneman]

Maybe the specialness of the place would be more appraent if some of the old hazards were restored (ex. it appears that the Himilayas hill used to be a large sleepered bunker and that the Alps bunker, and others, were also sleepered). 

[JNC Lyon]

Nothing

BOOM.  My thoughts exactly when I saw this thread's title.

For those who say Prestwick lacks length in the modern era, I strongly disagree.  From the tips, Prestwick tops out at over 6,900 yards.  That includes par fours of 346, 347, 288, and 284.  That means there is a lot of meat on the other 9 par fours.  The stretch from 5 to 13 is as difficult a group of holes as you well ever want to face, with a combination of length and rugged terrain that is nearly overwhelming.  I expected Prestwick to very short and quirky.  While it is certainly the latter, it is definitely not the former.

As I said before in the Byrncliff thread, there is golf and there is adventure golf.  I much prefer the second type of golf, and Prestwick has that second type as much as any course I've seen.  The blind shots, the railway boundary, the wacky greens, the stark topography, and funky routing are all part of the adventure.  Prestwick is great because of these features, not in spite of them.  From my view, if you don't love Prestwick, golf's meaning to you is diminished in some way.

Prestwick's consistently low rankings are one more reason I have little use for magazine ratings.

[JNC Lyon]

Blind shots, are a wonderful test so why so many US guys against them? Many of us over here just love them and look forward to play previously un-played courses for the absolute challenge they offer.
What is going on with American Golf is you don't like blind shots, wow, can't understand why a golfer would not want to play against the unknown.

Melvyn

There are plenty of American golfers who love blind shots, and plenty of British golfers who hate them.  Regardless of nationality, a dislike for blind shots is pretty hard for me to understand.

[Tom_Doak]

Blind shots, are a wonderful test so why so many US guys against them?

Melvyn:

I love to hit a blind shot every once in a while, as long as it's something that looks adventurous -- for which the Alps and Himalayas at Prestwick would certainly qualify.  [The Narrows is another story, trying to hit a narrow blind fairway without anything to mark your way.]

But I'm not your average American golfer.  Most American golfers hate blind shots because they want to know exactly what they are supposed to do, so if they hit a "perfect" shot they know they will get a good result.  To them, there is nothing more maddening than climbing up over a hill and finding out they're 30 feet from the hole when they expected to be five feet.  [And no, they do not accept their good fortune gracefully when it's the other way around, either.  I was once playing with a client who was a good player, who hit a bad weak pulled shot on one of my par-3's, but it landed in exactly the right spot and got a good kick forward and he almost made an ace -- and he HATED the hole.]

Plus, how can the Americans use their rangefinders if the target is blind??

[Ed Brzezowski]

Do you think it has anything to do with a "sense of fairness" most guy here believe in??  I hit a good shot and therefore i demand a good result?  Went to Scotland last summer and two players thought hitting a fairway with a " good " shot and watching it bounce into the rough was " unfair".

[JNC Lyon]

Do you think it has anything to do with a "sense of fairness" most guy here believe in??  I hit a good shot and therefore i demand a good result?  Went to Scotland last summer and two players thought hitting a fairway with a " good " shot and watching it bounce into the rough was " unfair".

I think it has everything to do with that "sense of fairness."  That's a sense I find hard to understand, and I think it goes deeper than golf.  Golf is unfair, life is unfair, but that's what makes them interesting.  How you overcome unfairness is the real test of a human being.

[Ed Brzezowski]

Do you think it has anything to do with a "sense of fairness" most guy here believe in??  I hit a good shot and therefore i demand a good result?  Went to Scotland last summer and two players thought hitting a fairway with a " good " shot and watching it bounce into the rough was " unfair".

I think it has everything to do with that "sense of fairness."  That's a sense I find hard to understand, and I think it goes deeper than golf.  Golf is unfair, life is unfair, but that's what makes them interesting.  How you overcome unfairness is the real test of a human being.
[/quot
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Amen, spent 3 months in Minnesota last year with the Mrs. and her transplant. There is no fairness in life. Hit a good shot and get a bad result, tough. Deal with it and man up.

Rolling Green, very nice.

[JNC Lyon]

Do you think it has anything to do with a "sense of fairness" most guy here believe in??  I hit a good shot and therefore i demand a good result?  Went to Scotland last summer and two players thought hitting a fairway with a " good " shot and watching it bounce into the rough was " unfair".

I think it has everything to do with that "sense of fairness."  That's a sense I find hard to understand, and I think it goes deeper than golf.  Golf is unfair, life is unfair, but that's what makes them interesting.  How you overcome unfairness is the real test of a human being.

Amen, spent 3 months in Minnesota last year with the Mrs. and her transplant. There is no fairness in life. Hit a good shot and get a bad result, tough. Deal with it and man up.

Rolling Green, very nice.



If you can't deal with unfairness on a golf course, how can you expect to deal with it in life?

I'm a big fan of Rolling Green--and I'm not just saying that for the RG members on the site!  We can debate the merits at the Philly gathering next weekend.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Looking for fairness, in golf or this life, come wake up and live in the real world,

Melvyn

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Prestwick is unique. You may love it if you wish, you may find fault in it. It is a period piece with an enviable history. The course is no longer that which challenged the earliest Open Championship protagonists. You have to accept it for what it is. It has extraordinary holes. It has ordinary holes. It has holes which you may now consider come from an earlier age. But if you are going to play Prestwick you need to do your homework on its history. And if that means little to you, don't bother to play it. If you appreciate its history, you will love every moment on the course.

[Adrian_Stiff]

If you ask 100 people do you want to play fairly or unfairly, those that say unfairly would be a tiny number. That is the problem with this site, too many of you shoot with the minor opinion. The world strives for a fairer life and golf courses have gotten better with the conditioning and the set ups to determine best play wins. The problem (if it is a problem) with the Prestwicks, the Old courses, North Berwick et all is that rogue bounce. To some it does not matter but too most it does. The old uns will probably drop gradually in the rankings as old raters die and new raters do the ratings, perhaps raters will acknowledge the newer courses more, perhaps the older courses will see a renaissaunce, who really knows.

My personal feelings about Prestwick is that it is awesome, but I still think it could be betterred and some holes are just so so. You must be honest and fair about assessing it, that airport is a vile outlook, I am suprised a shelter belt of scots pine was not planted 40 years ago to conceal it, the pines would have been a better view.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Adrian,

What a controversial suggestion - planting pines!
I'm not necessarily against it. My wife, an avid birdlover and golfer, would love it.
The plain fact (plane fact, too) is that this is a very boring landscape, blighted by an aerodrome (as is Royal Troon).
But while we no longer consider Prestwick an Open Championship host it seems to manage to hold its own at a slightly lesser level, not least the Amateur Championship.
What was the educated opinion of Prestwick in 2001 when Michael Hoey won the Amateur Championship? I remember seeing the BBC coverage, and I wouldn't expect them to upset the applecart.
I have friends who are members of other local clubs, including Royal Troon. They have respect, if not outright devotion, for Prestwick. The club they really champion is Western Gailes.


Mark.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Mark - I just think a view of Scots Pine is better than the A320 Airbus. If the airport and all that goes with her was not there I would not suggest it, but it was a flippant comment anyway but I do think the pine is one tree that does fit into links golf.

[Mark Chaplin]

Mark - club or course? 

It is very difficult to find anything negative to say about Prestwick as a club. We played a 36 holes foursomes match there last spring and lunched in the dining room. The day was difficult to exceed on any level especially when you beat the previous years R&A captain on his own patch!

[JNC Lyon]

If you ask 100 people do you want to play fairly or unfairly, those that say unfairly would be a tiny number. That is the problem with this site, too many of you shoot with the minor opinion. The world strives for a fairer life and golf courses have gotten better with the conditioning and the set ups to determine best play wins. The problem (if it is a problem) with the Prestwicks, the Old courses, North Berwick et all is that rogue bounce. To some it does not matter but too most it does. The old uns will probably drop gradually in the rankings as old raters die and new raters do the ratings, perhaps raters will acknowledge the newer courses more, perhaps the older courses will see a renaissaunce, who really knows.

My personal feelings about Prestwick is that it is awesome, but I still think it could be betterred and some holes are just so so. You must be honest and fair about assessing it, that airport is a vile outlook, I am suprised a shelter belt of scots pine was not planted 40 years ago to conceal it, the pines would have been a better view.

It's not about what people want.  It's about what is.  No matter what you do, there will always be luck involved in golf.  So why not embrace it?  The luck, the blind shots, the weird bounces: they are an essential part of the fun.  This isn't indoor tennis, track and field, or chess.  It's golf: it's played outdoors, over all sorts of land, and in all types of weather.  These are the elements are what make the sport great.  A quest for fairness leads to what we see on most of the PGA Tour, and that is boring as hell.

If my crime is espousing a minority opinion, then I am proud to be a criminal.  Things that cater to the majority, the lowest common denominator, be it food, houses, news, or politics, are usually watered down and without distinction.  I try to avoid these sorts of things, forge my own path while still gathering knowledge from sources I respect.  Mostly people don't think deeply about, well, anything, but it's still worth thinking deeply about, well, everything.  Without a spirit of adventure, one realizes a fraction of life's potential.

I say never be complete, I say stop being perfect, I say let's evlove, and let the chips fall where they may
-Tyler Durden in Fight Club

[Sean_A]

Anthony

I thought Prestwick did crack the rankings???  If it isn't a very well rated course in GB&I I think the airport has something to do with it.  There are enough holes of merit, sense of the unique and history that it should be rated quite highly.  Out of curiosity, where is Prestwick rated in the silly big mags?  It hits top 50 GB&I on the Top 100 site and top 100 on the UGCA.com rankings.

Ciao   

[Adrian_Stiff]

JNC - I am only saying the reasons WHY I think Prestwick and the older courses get a negative rap. The history and ambiance of this wonderful club is probably #1 for me, to walk the grounds where 6 golfers played the 1860 open and where Young Tommy beat his dad to win 3 on the trot and keep the belt. Things change and the airport is not nice, golf courses have got longer, with modern play its a bit conjested, few too many blind bits are the reasons..... but it is still brilliant. If I had 1 play I would choose Prestwick over TOC.

[Jud_T]

39th on Golfweek's GB&I Classic list:


http://www.golfweek.com/news/2012/jan/12/2012-golfweeks-best-gbi-courses/?RANKINGS-GolfweeksBest