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Phil Benedict

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When do you move to a shorter set of tees?
« on: January 12, 2012, 12:55:44 PM »
I haven't played for a year because of injury but expect that when I return I may have permanently lost distance.  In speaking with someone about whether I would continue to play my old course from the tips. I said that once I can't reach the longest par 4's with a drive and an iron, it's time to move up. 

Moving to forward tees is a big step in a way because it's an admission that you can't get better.  In some ways it's a precursor of mortality, which is probably why guys are so reluctant to move to the senior tees.

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: When do you move to a shorter set of tees?
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2012, 01:04:30 PM »
Phil,
When it's more slog than fun it's time to move forward. 

As you say, reluctance to move up is a mix of ego and mortality, but resistance is futile.  ;D   
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: When do you move to a shorter set of tees?
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2012, 01:11:08 PM »
When I think I have a better chance of winning the hole.

In your situation I'd start from 50 yards out my first time back after a year off...
Why not see how low you can go from the most forward tees
Welcome back
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

JMEvensky

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Re: When do you move to a shorter set of tees?
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2012, 01:13:16 PM »


I said that once I can't reach the longest par 4's with a drive and an iron, it's time to move up. 



Or go the other direction--when you can't get a short iron in your hands anywhere on the golf course except third shots to 5-pars.

Ken Moum

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Re: When do you move to a shorter set of tees?
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2012, 01:17:33 PM »
Moving to forward tees is a big step in a way because it's an admission that you can't get better.  In some ways it's a precursor of mortality, which is probably why guys are so reluctant to move to the senior tees.

Awww, you had to go and say that, didn't you?

I play shorter tees whenever I can because it's no damned fun hitting 12 or 15 fairway woods a round.  Espeically when I know that only about half of them have ANY chance of going far enough to reach the green.

On my home course, at 6433 yards, I often have to hit 16 fairway woods. By moving up one set of tees, that number drops under 10, and on a good day might only be six or seven.

And I'm a 12 handicap.

The best advice I ever saw was to multiply your five-iron distance times 36, and play something in that vicinity.  I don't carry any irons longer than seven, but a five would go about 165 yards.  That's 5940, and is almost my ideal length for having fun on the golf course.

FWIW, I am 64 years old and never did enjoy courses much over 6,400 yards.

K
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Ken Moum

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Re: When do you move to a shorter set of tees?
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2012, 01:19:10 PM »

Or go the other direction--when you can't get a short iron in your hands anywhere on the golf course except third shots to 5-pars.

What do you do when just about the ONLY time you have a short iron is for your third on 4-pars, or fourth on 5-pars?

LOL

K
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

JMEvensky

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Re: When do you move to a shorter set of tees?
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2012, 01:21:18 PM »

Or go the other direction--when you can't get a short iron in your hands anywhere on the golf course except third shots to 5-pars.

What do you do when just about the ONLY time you have a short iron is for your third on 4-pars, or fourth on 5-pars?

LOL

K

Ladies' tees.

Ken Moum

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Re: When do you move to a shorter set of tees?
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2012, 01:28:17 PM »

Or go the other direction--when you can't get a short iron in your hands anywhere on the golf course except third shots to 5-pars.

What do you do when just about the ONLY time you have a short iron is for your third on 4-pars, or fourth on 5-pars?

LOL

K


Ladies' tees.

Actually, I got my group to play a skins game from the most forward set of tees this fall.  They are just over 4,600 yards, and almost everyone said they enjoyed the heck out of it.  Only one guy shot a really low round, a 9 handicapper who is 50+ yards longer than the rest of us.

I have had carpal tunnel surgery on both hands wince October, and during my recovery, I played one handed from those tees. I could only hit it 125 yards off the tee, couldn't chip a lick, so I shot around 50 for nine holes.

K
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Howard Riefs

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Re: When do you move to a shorter set of tees?
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2012, 01:33:46 PM »
I don't hit a long ball. When it takes me a hybrid or fairway wood more often than not on an approach, it's time to move up.
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

JMEvensky

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Re: When do you move to a shorter set of tees?
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2012, 01:43:29 PM »

Actually, I got my group to play a skins game from the most forward set of tees this fall.  They are just over 4,600 yards, and almost everyone said they enjoyed the heck out of it.  Only one guy shot a really low round, a 9 handicapper who is 50+ yards longer than the rest of us.



I was kidding,kind of. I was taught to play from the ladies' tees to learn how to score.I used to do it pretty regularly.It's not as easy as people think.If all golfers were sworn to secrecy upon leaving the property,I bet a lot of people would play the ladies' tees frequently.

Everyone should play from the tees which are the most fun,period.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: When do you move to a shorter set of tees?
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2012, 01:50:37 PM »
The last few years, I move up a tee only on days that end in "Y".  I think that once we give up on the idea that we are "nearly as long at tour pros" it gets easier to move up to a tee where we are hitting the same short irons into greens that they do, even if we are playing 6300 or even 5800 yards.

Maybe its just me, but damn golf is fun with irons in your hand!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

PCCraig

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Re: When do you move to a shorter set of tees?
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2012, 02:05:17 PM »
I would say that if an average 10+ handicapper has more than 3 approaches on par-4's that require more than a 5-iron they should move up a set of tees. In fact, 99% of golfers could stand to move up in order to make the game easier and more fun.
H.P.S.

Tom ORourke

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Re: When do you move to a shorter set of tees?
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2012, 02:11:08 PM »
My course has it that at age 70 you can play the blended tees, which is 9 from the whites and 9 from the ladies, scattered through the 18. On some holes it is a huge advantage. On others it brings hazards into play that I can't reach from where I play so it works. Obviously you can play them at any age, but 70 is the tournament cutoff. There is a slope and rating so you can post your scrore when you play from there.

Pete_Pittock

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Re: When do you move to a shorter set of tees?
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2012, 02:12:12 PM »
Sunday, weather permitting, I'm moving up to the red-white combo tees.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2012, 03:32:36 PM by Pete_Pittock »

Niall C

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Re: When do you move to a shorter set of tees?
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2012, 02:39:20 PM »
For a UK golfer, this is a very strange thread to read. The notion that you move up a tee because you can't hit it as far seems positively alien. Over here in the UK the course is the course and you get on with it. If over time you lose distance and can't score as low, well then your handicap goes up ! Amazing that, isn't it.

Now the question I've got in my mind is why the difference between the UK and the US. Is it a cultural difference or does it have to do with golf course architecture ? Is it possible that the prevalence of forced carries in US courses forces the player to think about playing from set areas to reach another set area to get over/avoid a hazard eg feckin great big pond in front of the green. (now I've only played about a dozen US courses so feel free to shout me down on this gross generalisation).

In contrast the elasticity of most UK courses, particularly the older ones and particularly the links courses, with side hazards as opposed to forced carries allow a player to play out nearly all the time. The obvious exception to this is the true championship courses that have stuck some real championship tees way back in the bundi for the once every 5 year event such as an Open qualifier, but then that isn't the normal tees.

Am I wrong about all that and its just everything to do with the difference in the beer ?

Niall


Garland Bayley

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Re: When do you move to a shorter set of tees?
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2012, 02:53:43 PM »
For a UK golfer, this is a very strange thread to read. The notion that you move up a tee because you can't hit it as far seems positively alien. Over here in the UK the course is the course and you get on with it. If over time you lose distance and can't score as low, well then your handicap goes up ! Amazing that, isn't it.

...


I'm with you Niall. I just don't get it. Is golf participation going down because when people go to the golf course all they run into are a bunch of people obsessed with reaching greens in regulation and score? The beginner has little chance of reaching greens in regulation and scoring well, so what good does it do for him to play with these guys?

What happened to hitting a golf ball is fun?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

JMEvensky

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Re: When do you move to a shorter set of tees?
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2012, 02:55:30 PM »
Niall,no problem with gross generalizations (another difference)--we're all friends here.

My impression is that US golfers seem to value their handicaps more--especially the vanity handicaps.This tends to cause a lot of problems.Guys who can't play dead refuse to play a set of markers without a ball busting slope rating.

It would be fun to watch a lot of US golfers if they were told that their handicaps would only be calculated on competitive rounds as I understand UK handicaps are calculated.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: When do you move to a shorter set of tees?
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2012, 03:05:08 PM »
Garland,

I saw a study that says average golfers hit only 5 to 15 good shots a game.  If they hit less than 5, they simply quit.  If a newbie has a few rounds where he gets somewhere close to 15 good shots a game, he becomes a lifelong golfer.

Not sure if "good" means airborne, or if it means hit a fw or green, or made a putt over a few feet long.  I suspect that in addtion to hitting it nicely, there has to be some golfing reward, like a GIR.  Thus, I would say that yes, hitting greens via shorter courses (and using shorter clubs) is a big boost to golf participation.

Think about it - the par 4 is the dominant hole because the tee shot sets it up and the approach shot is the gravy.  Par 5's are weaker (unless reachable in two) mostly because that middle shot inherently has less interest than the other two.  If we add 14 non interseting shots per round via only length, can that make a golfer happy?

I have gotten feedback from women on my program of new shorter tees at 4300 yards or so.  At that length, one decent female player told me that she is "thrilled at being able to reach the four par 3's with irons (each under 100 yards, but she thought 100 should be the minimum) and just FIVE longer holes, for 9 total.  Just think how thrilled she - or most golfers of either sex - would be if every good tee shot was rewarded with a reasonable shot at the green, rather than an opportunity to advance it once or twice before having a real "golfy" shot, i.e., an approach to the green with some interest?

Not sure it has all that much to do with handicap as much as hitting golf shots that matter to score, which is slightly different.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Bob_Huntley

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Re: When do you move to a shorter set of tees?
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2012, 03:17:53 PM »
Niall,

I must disagree with your take on the issue. With some medical issues and old age I cannot hit any par four on either of our two courses with any club in the bag. Thirty years ago I aced the 241 yd par three fourth hole on the Dunes course at MPCC with a three wood; today, even if I move up to the Mens Forward tee at 200 yds, I take a driver and am consistently 20 odd yds short of the green. Some couple of months ago, I moved up to the SENIOR Ladies tees and found out how delightful the game can be.

I play nothing but match play and the pencil is only used for the profit and loss column.

Bob

p.s. My gracious younger opponents play back of me but now and again they play the Greens and have a ball.


Pete_Pittock

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Re: When do you move to a shorter set of tees?
« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2012, 03:35:26 PM »
For a UK golfer, this is a very strange thread to read. The notion that you move up a tee because you can't hit it as far seems positively alien. Over here in the UK the course is the course and you get on with it. If over time you lose distance and can't score as low, well then your handicap goes up ! Amazing that, isn't it.

...


I'm with you Niall. I just don't get it. Is golf participation going down because when people go to the golf course all they run into are a bunch of people obsessed with reaching greens in regulation and score? The beginner has little chance of reaching greens in regulation and scoring well, so what good does it do for him to play with these guys?

What happened to hitting a golf ball is fun?


For me moving up brings strategy back into the game, and this is means more fun

Bob_Huntley

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Re: When do you move to a shorter set of tees?
« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2012, 03:40:04 PM »
What is good for Henry Cotton is good enough for me. His take on birdies is wonderful.

http://www.golfdigest.com/magazine/2011-01/jerry-tarde-letter.

Bob

David_Tepper

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Re: When do you move to a shorter set of tees?
« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2012, 03:46:40 PM »
Bob H. -

Thanks for the link. It presents a very legitimate point of view.

DT

Steve Strasheim

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Re: When do you move to a shorter set of tees?
« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2012, 03:53:14 PM »
Quote
When do you move to a shorter set of tees?

For me, it was last summer. I play with my son and have found moving up to be more fun and much faster than me playing back and him in front. It really changes the game when you are chipping for eagles on par 4's and having some puts for eagle as well. It's much more fun and builds confidence for both of us.

We just played for 5 days at La Paloma in Tucson and played from the copper tees, closer than recommended for our handicaps. But, the course was fun and after the first day we would end up the day with more golf balls than we stared with.

JLahrman

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Re: When do you move to a shorter set of tees?
« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2012, 03:54:10 PM »
If your skills are in decline, your handicap should go up no matter what tees you play, although your score might not if you move to shorter tees.

I think many public golfers play longer tees because they do not feel they are getting their money's worth if they play shorter tees.

Personally I don't care what tees I play. I'm probably a longer than average hitter, so I don't mind going back. But I seem to be equally wild no matter what club I'm hitting, so I seem to shoot the same scores no matter what tees I play. In theory I should produce a lower handicap by shooting my 85 from the back tees instead of from a shorter set, but it really doesn't matter too much to me.

It is fun to get more wedge practice when you play shorter tees.

I've also heard of college coaches having their teams play practice rounds from the forward tees. The theory is that the players will become more accustomed to shooting low scores, and then won't be as scared of going low in an event (ie, being five-under for the day isn't something that will occupy their minds because they'll be used to the feeling, having done it in practice rounds.)
« Last Edit: January 12, 2012, 03:56:40 PM by JLahrman »

Philippe Binette

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Re: When do you move to a shorter set of tees?
« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2012, 03:54:40 PM »
You're not forced to play all the holes from one tee forward... maybe just 9 out of 18...

One day, you play the odd numbered holes from a tee forward, the next day you play the even numbered holes from one tee forward..

All of a sudden, it seems you have 2 courses at your home club..

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