A century later, Pine Valley,

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

The front of the green is about 6 feet below the back. The Punch in the Bowl has just spilled all over your chin...

Is the left side of the green, at 9:00 O'clock, higher than the middle of the green ?
Is the right side of the green, at 3:00 O'clock higher than the middle of the green ?
Is the back of the green, at 12:00 O'clock higher than the middle of the green ?

If the answer to those three questions is "yes" then you've got a punchbowl green to an incoming approach.
And, you know that the answer to those three questions is: "YES"

Regarding the tee shot on 6; if you can carry the ball 230 yards you have a 90 yard wide fairway to hit to. The further right you go, the closer to 230 it has to carry, but it will. At the center tree, a 230 carry will result in an approach in the neighborhood of 130 yards flat.


Here's another description of # 6:

6th hole, 390 yards; This dogleg to the right features one of the game’s finest angles of play. To carry the scrub straightahead off the tee is only 140 yards, but that would leave the golfer well over 200 yards into the green. Conversely, the boldest line requires a carry of 275 yards but the golfer would be left with a little wedge into the green. Regardless of which line the golfer takes, the closer his tee ball hugs the inside of the dogleg (i.e. the closer it is to the trouble), the better angle he has into the green, which is protected on its left front side by a bunker.

Here are some photos for reference.








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this shot is substantially easier to get close to the hole than the 100 yard shot into 17 when all hole locations are considered.

Here's a photo of the tee shot at 17 taken from the 17th tee.


If we're talking about low single digit players or better the tee shot on 6 is only slightly more difficult than 17 but the approach and putting is much easier in my opinion.

17th hole, 340 yards; Though Pine Valley has long set an unmatched standard for architecture in the United States, name another famous U.S. course that has a two shotter that measures under 340 yards in its last two holes?  Crystal Downs is one as is Olympic but that’s about it, which is a great pity but it only highlights how revolutionary George Crump truly was and how well he understood the psychology of the game. Like Donald Ross, Crump understood that there must be give and take by the course architect and he allows the golfer a chance to birdie the penultimate hole[/u] to break 80..or 90..or 100. Of course, rash tactics that place the greedy golfer above the day’s hole location on this sharply pitched green can be the undoing of an otherwise fine round.
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[Mark Chaplin]

17th at National maybe 360yds but appears to play far shorter and I've heard people have driven it or got very close.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

# 17 at NGLA plays sharply downhill with a prevailing wind at your back.

# 17 at PV plays uphill to sharply uphill and the wind, prevailing or random is rarely at your back

# 17 at NGLA has a fairway area leading to the green on the left side allowing for some run.

# 17 at PV has no such accommodation, with the green being elevated above a fronting bunker.

The holes are nothing alike.

[Mark Chaplin]

Pat your question was name another famous U.S. course that has a two shotter that measures under 340 yards in its last two holes? 

I was pointing out 17 NGLA maybe 360 yards but is actually a short par 4. Nowhere did I compare the holes they are like chalk and cheese.

[Scott Warren]

18th at CPC about 340 yards?

17th at Oakmont under 320?

So we'll add those to PV, Crystal Downs, Olympic.

And Mark, I'd agree with you that 17 at National plays as short as 17 at PV, perhaps moreso.

NB -- I believe that description of 17 at PV is a quote from Ran's review, so not Pat's own words. But in light of the above, perhaps not as rare as was suggested.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Scott,

Yes, those are Ran's comments in his "Courses by Country" essay.

Getting back to the original questions, with such wide fairways, how has Pine Valley been able to retain its challenge and ranking as # 1 or close to # 1, over all of these intervening years ?

]"The question is, with very few substantive amendments, how has the course been able to retain, not just its relevance, but it's position in the rankings as the # 1 golf course ?

Some holes have been lengthened to offset the advances in distance brought about by hi-tech, but, the bodies and greens on the holes remain today almost as they were 80, 90 and 100 years ago.  And, many of the holes haven't been lengthened.

So how has the course managed to retain its inherent challenge ?

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