A century later, Pine Valley,

[Tom MacWood]

In recent years TOC's quality has been questioned. The last few Open champions have been able to completely avoid the numerous bunkers despite the lengthening. The bunkers, along the with green complexes, were the primary features of the ingenious design. The tricking up of Shinnecock is well documented. And I'm not sure PVGC and CPC could stand up to a similar professional scrutiny...hard to say.

[archie_struthers]

 ....Pine Valley, set up to punish , is far more difficult than you can imagine.

There are only a select group  of people who really know how hard it was in 1981 for the Crump Cup qualiifer,   It was so hard that 85 made the championship flight (top sixteen) of a fairly select grouping of low handicap and perhaps ten world class amateurs. Jay Sigel was low and didn't break 75. The golf course is harder today with the new tees, but the set up is the key.

The USGA  surely would narrow the generous fairways that now exist, further making the possibilities of big numbers on any hole go up. Obviously many of the competitors would use hybrids off the tee on many holes , but the angles Jim S alluded to are quite vexing as the course is firmed up. The doglegs, particularly #'s 1,4,6, and 13 would require precise distance control. At green speeds achieved for many Opens, these greens become incredibly scary. Remember Shinny!

There are more reasons, which I can relate later .....congrats to all you hated Giants fans lol. At least it wasn't the Cowboys!  

[Jim Nugent]

In recent years TOC's quality has been questioned. The last few Open champions have been able to completely avoid the numerous bunkers despite the lengthening. The bunkers, along the with green complexes, were the primary features of the ingenious design. The tricking up of Shinnecock is well documented. And I'm not sure PVGC and CPC could stand up to a similar professional scrutiny...hard to say.

But could Pine Valley stand up to top professional scrutiny today?  From what Archie is saying, they would have to trick it up as well. 

[Mark Chaplin]

Green speed is relatively modern. Many of the tough greens Pat refers to like #3 would be no where near as tough stumping 5 or 6 some 80 or 90 years ago rather than 11+ now. They looked pretty slow as recently as the SWWofG match.

Pat the Crump Cup is a private tourney for the upper classes of US and overseas gentlemen mid-amateurs. The occasional GAP open may bring in a few world top 1000 players but it is not exposure to the best under competitive conditions.

The members do not need anyone else to tell them they have a wonderful pair of courses and great facilities.

Ps Before you go all green on me, no I do not have a written record of the daily green speeds over the past 90 years.

[archie_struthers]

 

Jim ....the nature of the Open is that of trickery and pain.  Rough high , fairways narrowed , tees lengthened , concrete greens et al..  


In the case of Pine Valley , the golf course as set up for daily play is far more benign than the tournament set - up for the Crump Tournament Qualifier.

 If the touring pros played the Valley under normal conditions from the members tees for four days , you would see lots of low scores, no doubt the competitive course record would fall. . Lots of mid 60's , as the pro's distance control and putting is so good.

. Moving to the back tees impacts the angles for most humans , but speeding up the greens is the biggest change from daily to tournament play for a touring pro, as they hit it so far .

All the caddies used to chuckle , quietly, when someone would say the back tees aren't much harder. Most  of us would strongly disagree for the average low handicapper, as 80 is a really good score from the way backs. It wasn't true then and certainly isn't the case now that it doesn't matter which tees you play. It certainly is fun from the daily tees , on a normal day.....


.  With ramped up green speeds  and narrowed fairways even the best players in the world would have a very difficult time , a couple under for 72 holes would be very , very good  If they grew the rough way up and made the fairways narrow, oh my !  Some scores would be obscene.

Pretty scary thought chipping out of heavy greenside rough  on # 5  or . #15  ....good luck making four pars on the threes   Ahhh 14   if the wind blows even a little from the 200 yard tee it's too hard.   I've seen lots of train wrecks on #8 in the qualifier ...with shaved fairways .....yikes

[Tom Birkert]

Obviously, these guys are good, as we are told repeatedly.

It is pure supposition, but given some of the positions you can get yourself into out there, and the unraked areas etc, not to mention rock hard greens then I don't think the pros would shoot incredibly low numbers.

Does anyone know how the pros tend to score when the member / pro event is held?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Archie,

I'd agree that any changes, other than length, would be maintainance oriented and not architectural feature oriented.

As a collection, Pine Valley's par 5's and par 3's are probably the most difficult I"ve encountered, from any tee.

There are some neat, subtle defenses built into the par 4's.
The dogleg nature of some of those holes, combined with bunkers/features that tend to limit length make the par 4's more difficult than they appear on the card.

As I was reflecting on the  par 4's, 17 appeared to be a "birdie" hole.
Maybe 6 to a degree.

By that I mean that a birdie should be attainable without dramatic or exceptional shots.
While every hole can be birdied, every hole can be doubled or worse.

The unique, built in defenses, when the course is played under optimal conditions, make scoring quite difficult.

[archie_struthers]

 

Pat, day in and day out #6 tends to be the easiest hole to make birdie IMHO . The backstop there is usable . However , the interesting thing about six is that the expert player is tempted to cut more of the dogleg to get a little flip wedge to the green. In doing so under firm and fast conditions it's really easy to turn it a little too much and knock it thru the fairway into the bushes on the other side. For most players it's not a worry!

The same is true on 13 as when it's fast the longer hitters have to be careful not to hit it too far. I'd guess a lot of the long hitters might take a swing at 15, particularly if the ball is rolling fast. However , lots of issues in going for the green as the bailout spots are not benign.

I'd think 18 might end up being one of the easier holes on the course for the pros, even from the new tees!  Of course if they cut the fairways back to thirty yards wide, it would be like the Bataan death march for the players.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Archie,

18's green may be the hole's Achilles heel, especially for the better/best golfers.

Restoring the pimple or spine as an internal feature would enhance the inherent challenge presented by the hole.
I'm surprised that this hasn't been done as it would be a restoration and it would improve the challenge, especially for the better golfer.

RE: 6 vs 17 as the easiest birdie hole, the drive on 17 is far more benign.
It's hard to get into trouble off the 17th tee, whereas the drive on # 6 is fraught with peril, long, short and right.

If I needed a birdie on the last hole and # 6 and # 17 were the choice of the last hole, I'd opt for # 17.

[Brett_Morrissy]

Pat and Archie,

Quote(Pat): There are some neat, subtle defenses built into the par 4's.
The dogleg nature of some of those holes, combined with bunkers/features that tend to limit length make the par 4's more difficult than they appear on the card.

You have both mentioned defence of length at Pine Valley by angles and or doglegs that limit length off the tees. I know there are many other hazards and penal areas that protect the holes as well, but i am interested in this design element of angles.

Do you both believe that it is fair and reasoanble for a course's design to dictate club and shot choice to a certain degree off the tee?

- and 2nd, isn't that kind of what the PGA does by bringing in FW widths, particularly on dog legs?

[JESII]

Brett,

I think the PGA/USGA limit width by narrowing fairways but rarely force you to lay back, in the truest sense of the term. Pine Valley features several holes that would not allow 300+ yard drives whatsoever.

[archie_struthers]

 

Jim , I think #6 is the easiest birdie for the daily player (fairly proficient)  and noted that the tee shot is harder as you hit it further . NO doubt you have driven it thru on more htan one occasion...even a broken dow senior citizen caddie (lol) has to worry if it;s firm and fast .....however you guys are cutting a three wood or nuking a hybrid !

Other than the front pins on #18 for the tour pro it isn't really too tough. Only here is distance off the tee a huge advantage over the scratch golfer.

[JESII]

Archie - agree about the 6th hole. If I have to make a birdie that's the hole I'd want although my one and only caddy tournament attempt doesn't support it. 1 under through 5 then double - quad - double!!!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat and Archie,

Quote(Pat): There are some neat, subtle defenses built into the par 4's.
The dogleg nature of some of those holes, combined with bunkers/features that tend to limit length make the par 4's more difficult than they appear on the card.

You have both mentioned defence of length at Pine Valley by angles and or doglegs that limit length off the tees. I know there are many other hazards and penal areas that protect the holes as well, but i am interested in this design element of angles.

Brett,

It's not just the doglegs/angles, but also the cant of the fairways in conjunction with the dogleg/angles.

On many holes, with # 12 probably being the only exception, the fairways are sloped/contoured providing the dual function of deflection panels and uneven lies.

Ball flight can be exacerbated or aided by the deflection panels in the DZ.
A fade might help on one hole and hurt on another.
A draw might help on one hole and hurt on another.
A straight tee shot might help on some holes and hurt on others.

The combination of dogleg and cant provides a terrific and sometimes subtle defense that isn't readily perceived by many golfers.
A draw on # 4 can land you in jail.
A draw on # 13 can be a great asset or result in disaster depending upon where you start your drive.
A draw on # 6 can be great or disastrous, again, depending upon where you start your drive.
Likewise fades can help or hurt you depending upon their start point.
# 13, on the second shot is where a fade can wind up costing you more than a few strokes if the start point isn't correct.
Same for # 6.

Do you both believe that it is fair and reasoanble for a course's design to dictate club and shot choice to a certain degree off the tee?

If you believe that it's part of the architect's mission to present a challenge that provides a thorough examination of the golfer's game, then yes.
But, I don't think Pine Valley dictates, I think a subtle element of the design "suggests" the club and shot choice off the tee.
Those that have confidence in their game and can execute their tee shot on demand, will find Pine Valley's fairways generous and fair.
But, if you miscalculate, misalign or mis-hit "your" shot, be prepared for the consequences.

I prefer my driver to my 3-wood.
I feel more comfortable hitting a choked down driver with a full or 3/4 swing than I do hitting a 3-wood, but, the choice is mine.

I've hit 3-wood off # 17 tee, but like getting a driver further up the slope leaving me 100 or less into the green.

I could hit a long iron, 3-wood or driver.  The choice is mine on a very, very wide fairway.

I also like to hit driver on # 1.  Others prefer a 3-wood.  Same for # 4 and # 6.
# 8 is again a three choice decision, long iron, 3-wood or driver.
Years ago, I used to use a 2-iron or 3-wood until Jay Sigel told me that the better shot would be a driver to the slight upslope short of the green, leaving one a much better approach lie, a nice little pitch off of a slightly uphill lie rather than the downhill-sidehill lie associated with the DZ for the 2-iron/3-wood.  The risk/reward element awaits on every tee.



- and 2nd, isn't that kind of what the PGA does by bringing in FW widths, particularly on dog legs?

I"m not that familiar with PGA setups, David Eger would be far more qualified to comment on that.

[Brett_Morrissy]

Pat,
I love the sound of all those different angles and slopes on the Fairways and in the Drive zones.

Are they obvious to the first time and observant player off the tee, or must they be learnt over successive plays?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brett,

Some are not obvious as the DZ on holes like 4 and 8 are blind off the tee.

Others like 6 and 11 give you an inclination.

To the first timer a good caddy can make all the difference in the world, and based on my experience I'd say that the caddies are very good.

[archie_struthers]

 

Many of us have talked about the home court advantage at Pine Valley. It's one of the biggest in the game. Comfort with the angles , the greens , the recoveries LOL !  If you look at the winners of the Crump through out the years , it's pretty telling that so many members have won, or long time competitiors repeat.

As they ramp up the speeds of the fairways and greens , and move the tee markers and pin positions around, comfort with the place just makes for good play.  That's why it's so much fun caddying there also . It's one of the few places that a really good caddy can save a good player with their knowledge ,

[JSlonis]

Archie,

I've always thought #12 was the easiest birdie hole on the course by a good margin.  I can see #6 for the front nine but I think the tee shot on 12 is easier and the 2nd shot is usually much shorter. From personal experience, I've seen many more birdies from my groups on 12 compared to any other hole.

Archie & Pat,

Great points in the above posts.  There are so many factors that make Pine Valley great.  One of the interesting ones for me is hole #8.  It's the shortest par 4 on the course and after playing there pretty regularly for the past 10 years or so, I'm still not sure of the best way to attack it. Recently, I've been going the more aggressive route off the tee with driver to get the tee shot as close as possible to the green.  Sometimes I'm left with an awkward pitch but it's still easier than hitting a 3/4 wedge of a downhill sidehill lie hoping not to spin it back off the green.  I've witnessed more doubles and higher on that little hole than you can imagine.  It's such a great short par 4 because it really can get in the head of the better player.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jamie,

# 12 is an interesting hole.

Statistically, I'd be willing to bet that as the hole location moves deeper into the green, the number of birdies declines significantly.

I still think # 17 is the easiest birdie hole for two reasons.

1.  The tee shot is to a huge, forgiving DZ that does not require dramatic length or accuracy.
2.  The short second shot is to a punchbowl green.

[JESII]

Pat,

The 17th green is as much a punchbowl as your forehead...

With a decent tee shot, the approach to 6 is the easiest on the course. The tee shot on 17 is easier than 6 but the wedge is substantially more difficult due to the uphill lie and uphill shot and steeply back-to-front sloping green. Getting the distance correct is tough.

Jamie makes a good point about 12 though, as do you. A front pin on 12 is probably the easiest hole on the course but the back third is much tougher.

[archie_struthers]

 >:

We are jumping around a little , hello Jamie Happy New Year to you and yours!   I'm still talking tournament conditions which makes # 12 back tee
a little tougher than # 6 . For daily play , we agree !  

#12 with tight fairways and firm conditions can give some really good players the shakes !

[JESII]

It's a funny debate because I've butchered all these holes in competition.

Archie, the same conditions you talk about which make 12 so good in a tournament would also contribute to make the tee shot on 6 that much more difficult...but, once you handle the tee shot it's a birdie hole no doubt.

The old story of if you get through the first 5 holes in decent shape you should be able to score well is a good lead in to my one caddy tournament try. 4 pars and a birdie on #2 and I stand on the 6th tee 1 under...

Hit it through the fairway and make a 6
Hit it left on 7 and make a 9
Hit it left on 8 and make a 6 on my way to 80 and a second place finish.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

The 17th green is as much a punchbowl as your forehead...

Would you say the green is concave or convex ?

Concave equates to a punchbowl like green

With a decent tee shot, the approach to 6 is the easiest on the course.

That's a pretty big concession, a "decent tee shot".

On # 6 the tee shot has to be better than decent, in terms of distance and accuracy.
Hit it slightly left and you have a longer approach if you still have a shot.
Hit it slightly right and you're down in the valley of doom.
Hit it too long and you're through the fairway.
Hit it too short and you're in the valley of doom or have an awkward lie.

Consider the same imprecise tee shots at # 17.

In no way are you disadvantaged by those tee shots as you are at # 6.

The tee shot on 17 is easier than 6.

but the wedge is substantially more difficult due to the uphill lie and uphill shot and steeply back-to-front sloping green. Getting the distance correct is tough.

More difficult than what ?  A wedge from a flat lie ?  Agreed, but I'll take wedge from 100 yards with an uphill lie versus a 5,6,7 or 8 iron from further out on a relatively flat lie every time.

I don't know how a wedge from 100 yards is substantially more difficult than a much longer approach shot.

At 338 from the back tee, there's NO demand on distance off the tee, no heroic carry to challenge, little if any chance of producing a double or triple bogey from an errant tee shot, which is the case at # 6.

While the green at # 6 is larger, the right half is unusable.


Jamie makes a good point about 12 though, as do you. A front pin on 12 is probably the easiest hole on the course but the back third is much tougher.

For me, hole location almost always dictates the club off the tee.
When the hole is cut back, I think you have to use driver to put you even with the green, leaving you several approach options and a fairly benign shot selection, whereas, laying back and attacking the back of that green that sits diagonally is a demanding shot, fraught with big numbers at the end of it.

[archie_struthers]

 

Sully , that's tough sledding as if you can keep your wits about you and survive 1 -5 you are probably hitting it pretty good and thinking well!  Probably couldn't have gotten much action that you would have spit the bit. Did Leo win?


You are right about the danger of hitting it thru, but still think 12 plays a little tougher when you drop the flag in a tourney.

Number four is my sleeper as one of the toughest holes out there when it is firm and fast. . Obviously #1 is Always in the top three toughest relative to par.

[JESII]

Pat,

The front of the green is about 6 feet below the back. The Punch in the Bowl has just spilled all over your chin...


Regarding the tee shot on 6; if you can carry the ball 230 yards you have a 90 yard wide fairway to hit to. The further right you go, the closer to 230 it has to carry, but it will. At the center tree, a 230 carry will result in an approach in the neighborhood of 130 yards flat. this shot is substantially easier to get close to the hole than the 100 yard shot into 17 when all hole locations are considered. If we're talking about low single digit players or better the tee shot on 6 is only slightly more difficult than 17 but the approach and putting is much easier in my opinion.

12 is an interesting one because of the green as you mentioned.

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