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TJSturges

At what age is best work produced?
« on: December 22, 2001, 10:42:10 AM »
This has probably been written up before, but a discussion I had with another GCA'er produced this question?  At what age does a golf course architect produce his/her best work?  Dr. MacKenzie build CP in his mid 50's, Pete Dye was in his early 40's when he built The Golf Club (my opinion of his best), Coore and Crenshaw were both in their 40's when they built SH, and T. Doak just turned 40 this year (the year of PD).  Ross and MacDonald were much older when they built their best.  Is there a correlation between an architect's age and his/her best work?  Do they get better with time and experience?  Is it all dependant upon the property?  Would T. Doak have built as good a course at PD if he got that property 10 years earlier?

What do you guys think?

TS
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: At what age is best work produced?
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2001, 12:15:18 PM »
Ted,
If this hasn't been one of the most defining years for all of golf architecture then I can hardly wait for more of the same!

Just like some of us that have learned from this daily digital exercise called Golf Club Atlas, I'm sure so has many of our best designers today and yesterday. In truth, just like fine wine, the more aged and properly studied architect can only be better and better, but like that bold bottle of Opus One that you have been saving for a very special occasion, it does have a point where it has met it's time and it is ripe to serve.

I guess I mean, how long does one want to keep traveling all over the country and the world to produce golf courses where it becomes a task and not the same passion as when you were in the prime of your youth? However, there are bottles of wine that last a long time, and with each passing year, encassed in glass, develop even better taste no matter how much the output.

The crop of 2001 was more then just an oddyssey, it is hopefuly the new frontier of which the game will only profit for years to come.

(I hope I'm not sounding like Chance the Gardner/Chauncey Gardner:))
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ward peyronnin

Re: At what age is best work produced?
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2001, 08:30:27 PM »
Ted
Just cause you turned forty this year and are freaking about your own mortality don't limit productivity to experience, age , and hoariness. If there is an age thing maybe its related to the quality of support players and property opps an architect is able to attract as his rep is established. Just a natural progression which I personnally think our friend Mr. Doak jump statrted .

Your Pal
Ward
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Chris Hervochon

Re: At what age is best work produced?
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2001, 10:57:13 PM »
You have to remember, some architects get started later than others.  I think the more relevant question is how many years of experience they have.  Don't forget, Mackenzie was a doctor before an architect.  Pete Dye sold insurance.  I would say 10 years is the minimum for an architect to hit his prime.  Give or take.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

redanman (Guest)

Re: At what age is best work produced?
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2001, 12:31:42 AM »
Well, Ward, I turned 50 this year as you know and I haven't even had my chance yet....... since Ted seems to be pushing for 40?

This is one of the questions where I doubt there is a single answer.  Crump vs. Wilson begs that there is no single answer, while we don't know when we'll see the best Jeff Brauer, Jim Engh, Gil Hanse or Dick Daley, for example.

From some of those you mentioned, it just might be better phrased "When does an architect find that right piece of property". The skill is already there, but the expression may be dependent on the land.  

We should have already seen THE Masterpiece from Fazio, no?, or based upon his philosophical tome it will be just before he dies.

I'll be stoned a la Afghanistan or Iran for saying this here, but what if Raynor had gotten to build Cypress, hmmmm?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: At what age is best work produced?
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2001, 03:30:21 AM »
I'm sure age (experience!) has a lot to do with it but for best work produced time on site at any age seems far more important to me!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: At what age is best work produced?
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2001, 05:31:04 AM »
I have been told by another architect that he doesn't believe that you can be an architect before you are over forty.  That just makes me more detemined to do it before I am 40.

I have my first design coming to fruit next year and then I am hoping to get into Heriot-Watt university in Scotland in October to study a M.Sc. in Golf Course Architecture for a year.

By which time I will be 34...

With that I will have had 5 years experience as a qualified Land Surveyor (specialist in GPS), 2 years as a setting out surveyor, 2 years as a foreman for a heavy construction company, 1 year on tender calculations for the same company and now 2 years as the Head of golf course construction.

I think that all helps, I just hope that I have the vision and imagination to create good golf courses because no matter what degrees or qualifications you have, you still need the heart of an artist...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: At what age is best work produced?
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2001, 06:59:43 AM »
Somebody ought to go the through the world top 100 and figure out the age of the architect at the point of each course's creation. There doesn't seem to be too many examples of young architects producing great designs and not too many very old either - that might be a result booze. I'd guess between 40 and 60 which is a pretty large window.  You need to be up into your forties before you can develop a real good drinking habit, unfortunately by 60 your likely to drop dead.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

mikep

Re: At what age is best work produced?
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2001, 07:20:52 AM »
Ted,

Some food for thought re: Tillinghast, born 1874, first course Shawnee in 1909, age 35.

San Fran GC    1915    Age 41
Somerset Hills  1918          44
Baltusrol         1922          48
Winged Foot    1923          49
Quaker Ridge   1926          52
Ridgewood      1929          55
Bethpage Black 1935         61
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

BillV

Re: At what age is best work produced?
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2001, 07:25:37 AM »
So mikep

Which is the seminal work of the list? ? ?  ? ?

Dealer's choice?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: At what age is best work produced?
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2001, 07:34:16 AM »
This begs another question - at what age does a classical
architect really receive his due?

Answer - after his death.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

mikep

Re: At what age is best work produced?
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2001, 12:29:24 PM »
BillV,

Pretty tough to pick. Tillie produced some great courses over a 15 yr period until the Depression.  Imagine how many other gems he might have created from 1929 to 1935 had the financing not dried up.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

BillV

Re: At what age is best work produced?
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2001, 01:51:14 PM »
My point exactly.  Tillie was amazingly consistent and hard to peg.  Different courses are of high quality and almost seem to be by different architects.

I have a hard time picking his "best".
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff McDowell

Re: At what age is best work produced?
« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2001, 02:22:56 PM »
I've never felt there is a strong correlation between course quality and age of the designer. I've always said (without much evidence) that great design is a product of someone's passion.

The passion can come from the architect, contractor, owner, or superintendent.

The passion can manifested itself in the form of the architect being on-site throughout, the owner providing a clear vision, the superintendent making meaningful improvements, or the contractor willing to work until it's perfect.

But if a project doesn't have a passionate advocate, the course will have a hard time achieving greatness.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: At what age is best work produced?
« Reply #14 on: December 25, 2001, 10:44:47 AM »
Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to you all!  (Especially Brad Klein and all the New Yorkers this year)

I have a bit of time after gift opening and before the big feast, and have been pondering this thread.

I tend to disagree with my friend Jeff McDowell on this one.  I have always felt you need about a decade of experience (read mistakes) under your belt to do your best work, regardless of passion.  I can only base it on my own experience, of course, but a lot of factors go into making the right decisions, and making the wrong ones a few times is almost a must to really learn the craft.

I went on my own after seven good learning years at a good firm.  I didn't feel I knew it all at that time, but that I would learn faster by making mistakes on my own name and money.  My first seven years on my own were spent doing mostly lower budget projects, and thinking mostly from a cost only perspective, whch, for example, kept me from doing big greens (smaller ones are cheaper).

Obviously, I did enough right to start getting some bigger projects on better sites, but it took some time to develop the style and mannerisms to say no to many negative influences that you usually don't have when younger. (Poor contactors, Good Contractors who test your resolve, Owner's with low budgets that could be raised if only you hit the right buttons, etc.)

Also, when first on my own, I felt the need to change styles from my predesessors (as if they were my only competition (duh!)) and went through a few gyrations in the evolution of my style.  I have also been lucky to study more of the great courses old and new in the last dozen years.  While all that study may have been done at a very early age by a select few, that most architects don't get that chance. It also doesn't hurt to have lots of alone time on planes and in hotels to really do some doodles and creative conceptual thinking on golf design, either!

The practical side of things is most architects have to "learn on the job" to apply those conceptual thoughts technically to an individual site.  Well, there may be smarter guys than me, but true learning - about the conceptual, techical and business sides of the profession usually comes slowly, and you can always learn more with more time, and all are important to doing good work.  So, most architects, IMHO, do get better with age,

I agree with Jeff that passion is important, so there is no reason not to keep getting better with age, providing health allows and the passion stay with us.  Sadly, there have been some for whom this is not true (including CB Mac and Tillie, among others)
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Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

TJSturges

Re: At what age is best work produced?
« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2001, 07:30:23 AM »
Interesting thoughts.  

I'm curious though about one of my original questions.  To use Tom Doak as an example....    Would T. Doak and crew have built a course as good on the PD site if they got that property in 1991?  Tom, if you are listening, how would you answer?

Merry Christmas.

TS
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »