Forgetting about Pine Valley,

[Patrick_Mucci]

are their any courses designed by prominent ODG's via a collaborative effort ?

One of the most interesting courses, CC of York, enlisted both Ross and Flynn to produce a design, but, not in a collaborative effort.  Ross was awarded the project.

How often did prominent ODG's compete for a design ?

What are some examples ?

Will we see another private club that's the product of a joint venture ?

Public ?

[Mark Saltzman]

Will we see another private club that's the product of a joint venture ?

Sebonack?

[Mac Plumart]

Mark...your response should be;

Sebonack!..not, Sebonack?

Also:

Old MacDonald



And some legit ?'s

Old Elm---Colt routing, Ross construction
Palmetto---Mackenzie greens, Leeds routing
The Sea Island courses---used to be a bunch of nine hole courses by different archies, now they have been combined to form 18 hole courses, and add in the fact they've been rennovated by modern dudes.

[Bill_McBride]

All those Coore & Crenshaw courses. 

[Tom_Doak]

Fortunately, all of the collaborators at Sebonack or Old Macdonald [or any of the Coore and Crenshaw courses] are still among the living.

But, Patrick, you are forgetting completely the names of the architectural firms of the 1920's.

There was Colt, MacKenzie, and Alison -- later Colt, Alison and Morrison.  And once MacKenzie left the firm, he collaborated with Alex Russell, Perry Maxwell, and Robert Hunter, prominently, and several others, less prominently.

How about Toomey and Flynn?  Surely Tom Paul must have mentioned them to you at some point?

Or George Thomas and Billy Bell?
Or Stiles and Van Kleek?

There were lots of collaborations in the old days, formal and informal.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark & Mac,

Will we see "ANOTHER" connotes, in the future, not past or existing courses.

Tom Doak,

Those were formal business partnerships, not unlike Von Hagge & Devlin, Muirhead & Nicklaus, Weiskopf &Moorish.

I was thinking about independents, not unlike you and Nicklaus.

[Mac Plumart]

Pat...

Yes, we will.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom Doak,

Those were formal business partnerships, not unlike Von Hagge & Devlin, Muirhead & Nicklaus, Weiskopf &Moorish.

I was thinking about independents, not unlike you and Nicklaus.

Okay, Patrick.

Have you ever heard of Augusta National?  

And you should read the book on MacKenzie.  He was not big on "formal business partnerships" at all, which is why his relationship with Colt foundered.  His collaborations in Australia and America were very loose associations, pursued for one or two projects at a time.  It's a business model I have always had in the back of my mind, for leaner times.

[Scott Warren]

The Berkshire's two courses -- Fowler and Simpson working together.

There are plenty of examples of British courses with an all-star ODG design team, but generally over a long period of time and working one after the other, not side-by-side.

Burnham & Berrow, for example, was worked on at different times by Fowler, Colt, Alison and MacKenzie.

Rye can boast the involvement of at least Colt, Simpson and Sir Guy Campbell.

[Niall C]

Scott

I suspect that Fowler and Simpson were in partnership at the time they did the Berkshire courses. There are however plenty of examples where one prominent architect came in shortly after another and made some changes and then the original guy came back in again. MacKenzie bumped heads with Braid in this fashion a number of times which perhaps accounts for Dr MacKenzie's snidey comments about Gleneagles in Spirit of St Andrews. Speaking of Gleneagles, that was a collaberation between Braid and Hutchinson if you believe some commentators.

Patrick,

I would think that almost certainly there will be further collaborations at some point. The question is what set of circumstances will bring them about. I can imagine that some Keiser/Kohler type figure in the future might bring in a top gca to work with on a particular prior to maybe striking out to do their own designs. You may also get collaborations for marketing purposes and given the paucity of work at the moment, I suspect that you may see some arrangements that wouldn't have happened in the good times.

Niall 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Niall,

A fellow I know wants to create a golf course, public, but owned by his charitable foundation, that would employ "underprivileged or disadvantaged" children and adults.

His concept is to acquire the land, primarily through charitable donations, and then enlist a variety of architects to design a hole or a few holes.

Simple in theory,
Complex in reality.

Who will do the routing, who will choose which and how many holes, and where, etc., etc..

Sort of a modern day rendition behind the "Architect's club" in NJ, except all of the architects are alive and practicing.

I liked the link to charity aspect.

But, that's different from a private club enlisting two independent architects to work together to produce a course.

Inherently, wouldn't that course be a watered down version of the creative process, with some of the features the product of compromise ?

[Niall C]

Patrick

Re your last point I think a degree of compromise in the quality of the design is almost inevitable, a case of too many cooks. Even where creative people are working harmoniously together there is generally one person with the final say. Tom D has stated often enough that his crew should get credit for a lot of the design work done in the field. While accepting that I can't help thinking that there was only ever one boss in that line up.

Niall

[Tom MacWood]

That is a good question. I don't believe most the examples given were actually collaborations. At Old Elm Colt and Ross was a collaboration, but not the kind you are looking for. To my knowledge Ross did not contribute to the design. There are a lot of design and constructor collaborators, but I don't believe that is the question, is it?

There is pretty good evidence Raynor and Macdonald collaborated on a few. I believe Colt and Alison worked independently from one another, and the same with Fowler and Simpson, although there may have been exceptions. According to Wayne Morrison Toomey did not contribute any design input; I'm not sure exactly what he did contribute. I get the impression Thomas and Bell did collaborate at some point, the same with Hawtree and Taylor. Paton and Low at Woking is a famous one. There are probably quite a few collaborations, but not necessarily the big name multi partner firms.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Years ago, when with K and N and doing a MP for Old Elm, they told us the story that they wanted a collaborative design, secretly asked both Ross and Colt to the club, and locked them together in an upstairs room to hammer out a design, more or less against their will.  It is said that the design of Shoreacres was offered to both (as it would be a second club for many members) and both turned it down from the original experience, thus Raynor got the job.

Perhaps it was just club lore, but that is the story they told - a forced collaboration.....

Not exactly on topic, but here are my collaborations over the years (excluding Tour Pros):

Windstone, Chattanooga, TN (with Gary Baird, who actually did the front nine five years eariler, while we did the back later, so we share credit)
Whitestone, Benbrook, TX - with Jay Morrish, a true collaboration, but my firm did all the drawing, he consulted on design and field visits
La Costa Champions Course, Carlsbad, CA - with Pascuzzo and Pate (renovation) and also a true collaboration

I have some former associates who claim collaborative design credit on some projects, but its not quite the same!

[Dan Boerger]

Along the lines of this thread, and in "about the worst idea ever" was what almost happened at St. George's Hill in Surrey. Evidently, estate builder WG Tarrant had the idea that the golf course should be designed by the homeowners themselves. Select 18 or so and have each design a hole (presumably one that bordered their estate). Fortunately, he was talked into hiring Harry Colt.

[Bill_McBride]

Years ago, when with K and N and doing a MP for Old Elm, they told us the story that they wanted a collaborative design, secretly asked both Ross and Colt to the club, and locked them together in an upstairs room to hammer out a design, more or less against their will.  It is said that the design of Shoreacres was offered to both (as it would be a second club for many members) and both turned it down from the original experience, thus Raynor got the job.

Perhaps it was just club lore, but that is the story they told - a forced collaboration.....

Not exactly on topic, but here are my collaborations over the years (excluding Tour Pros):

Windstone, Chattanooga, TN (with Gary Baird, who actually did the front nine five years eariler, while we did the back later, so we share credit)
Whitestone, Benbrook, TX - with Jay Morrish, a true collaboration, but my firm did all the drawing, he consulted on design and field visits
La Costa Champions Course, Carlsbad, CA - with Pascuzzo and Pate (renovation) and also a true collaboration

I have some former associates who claim collaborative design credit on some projects, but its not quite the same!

Jeff, how did Jerry get involved with Pascuzzo?  (Assuming that's the "Pate").    Jerry has designed some really good courses, mostly with the design input of Steve Dana, a great young Princeton grad who's our two-time club champion.   He doesn't get a lot of love here, buthis work is pretty solid.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Bill,

It's Steve Pate, not Jerry.  Both are from California, but I didn't really ask how they got put together.  It seems like it was mutual friends.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill,

It's Steve Pate, not Jerry.  Both are from California, but I didn't really ask how they got put together.  It seems like it was mutual friends.

So Steve was the "PGA consultant."

[Jed Peters]

Patrick,

Pebble Beach and Olympic lake come to mind here in NorCal.

[Niall C]

"There is pretty good evidence Raynor and Macdonald collaborated on a few. I believe Colt and Alison worked independently from one another, and the same with Fowler and Simpson, although there may have been exceptions. According to Wayne Morrison Toomey did not contribute any design input; I'm not sure exactly what he did contribute. I get the impression Thomas and Bell did collaborate at some point, the same with Hawtree and Taylor. Paton and Low at Woking is a famous one. There are probably quite a few collaborations, but not necessarily the big name multi partner firms."

Tom Mac

I get the distinct impression from various articles and newspaper mentions that Fowler and Simpson did collaborate on designs, at least in the early days when they worked as a partnership. Simpson also worked with Croome at Eastbourne I believe before going into partnership.

Niall

[Scott Warren]

We also have Abercrombie and Colt at The Addington, Abercrombie and Park at Worplesdon and Abercrombie and Fowler at West Kent.