MIKE YOUNG DESIGNS ISSUES PUBLIC GOLF PROCLAMATION...

[Mike_Young]

"The ENTIRE INDUSTRY, but PARTICULARLY those at the top of these various organizations/companies, needs a steady, relentless bludgeoning of this reality driven into their greedy, cement-thick heads, or all other proclamation points will be irrelevant!"

Kris

Your comment above seems to me to be indiscriminate and in bad taste at a time when many businesses are struggling to survive. Those that run those businesses employ a great many people who have added to the game of golf and have been fortunate to be involved in working in a game that they love. You may also wish to consider that some of the head of companies that you refer to are actually members of this site. Just a thought.

Niall

Niall,
i think you may have misunderstood his point.  An example:  Irresponsible would be to design 150000 sq ft of USGA spec green with subair for a muni course getting $25 per round instead of a California style green.  This happens....if yuo spec such you are guilty of what Kris is saying IMHO.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Golf is a game is stating the obvious, the relationship as it as ONE and golf being a business being TWO are not related as one being more important than the other. There is nothing more important than a sound financial footprint of how everything is going to or projected to work. Sadly it was virtually posible to get funding for a new 36 holer with a spa facility in central Greenland a few years ago.

[JWL]

Mike
Is there a place where I can sign your proclamation?
MM says we need to get a group together somewhere.   
Count me in.
Cheers

[Terry Lavin]

Mike,

I am your loyal servant, your subaltern, your lackey, your amanuensis. I will do only your bidding.  Or your bidness. Whatever.

[Jay Flemma]

Uh-oh!  Somebody gave Mike his hollerin' whiskey! Kidding! Kidding!  Seriously, though...can't we say they are both right and that they both are trying to do the same good thing, just in different ways?  I mean Jones really broke ranks from  his past with Chambers Bay and for the first time in 120 years the US Open is coming to the Pacific NW and a municipal course as well.  That's pretty good...

That golf course is downright sublime...and full of character.  Is it not, perhaps, his best?

[Mike_Young]

Uh-oh!  Somebody gave Mike his hollerin' whiskey! Kidding! Kidding!  Seriously, though...can't we say they are both right and that they both are trying to do the same good thing, just in different ways?  

Nope...

[Bill_McBride]

Mike
Is there a place where I can sign your proclamation?
MM says we need to get a group together somewhere.   
Count me in.
Cheers

Men's grill, Athens CC. 

[Niall C]

"The ENTIRE INDUSTRY, but PARTICULARLY those at the top of these various organizations/companies, needs a steady, relentless bludgeoning of this reality driven into their greedy, cement-thick heads, or all other proclamation points will be irrelevant!"

Kris

Your comment above seems to me to be indiscriminate and in bad taste at a time when many businesses are struggling to survive. Those that run those businesses employ a great many people who have added to the game of golf and have been fortunate to be involved in working in a game that they love. You may also wish to consider that some of the head of companies that you refer to are actually members of this site. Just a thought.

Niall

Niall,
i think you may have misunderstood his point.  An example:  Irresponsible would be to design 150000 sq ft of USGA spec green with subair for a muni course getting $25 per round instead of a California style green.  This happens....if yuo spec such you are guilty of what Kris is saying IMHO.

Mike

I'm not in the business and therefore have no first hand knowledge of the type of sharp practice that you refer to. My point to Kris was not so much refuting that this type of thing goes on but that in his post he seemed to lump every head of any type of golf business into the category of being entirely profit motivated without any due consideration as to whether the product or advice being sold was the most valid option.

If you take Kris's comments literally then you, Tom Doak, Jeff Bruar and any other employer on this site is guilty of such practice. Given your comments on this thread and elsewhere I wouldn't have thought so, and the same goes for the others mentioned. What I'm basically saying is don't tar everyone with the same brush.

Niall

[Mac Plumart]

Wade'
6. We will make sure the client understands that statements such as : "Create wider strategic routings and sets of shorter "family tees" to encourage children to take up golf and have fun playing it" are too little too late and actually have nothing to do with encouraging people to take up the game.

And to go a step further, why does strategy have any thing to do with teaching a child to play golf when he can't hit it 75 yards? It doesn't.
IMHO people take up the game when it is presented as a game and not a lifestyle.  For 20 years we have been presenting golf as a lifestyle.

Great and profound point regarding kids, golf, and design.

[Mike_Young]

But Mac, I am a profound person...

[BCrosby]

Mike -

The decline of active golfers, as with with the difficulty of bringing kids and other newbies into the game, has almost nothing to do with golf course architecture. That it were so simple.

If that means I agree with you, give me a few minutes to change my post. 

Bob

[Carl Johnson]

Quoting Mike Young:  "7. . . . We want to emphasize to the public that most of  the support programs and organizations that introduce new players to the sport are not effective and are extremely heavy on the administrative end.  It is also important that the public understand that many of these organizations thrive on large corporations using their support efforts as a 'feel-good' promotion to the public."

Good point.  Only after I volunteered with one such organization for the last half of 2010 did I come to appreciate that.

[Mike Hendren]

Isn't the issue, unhappily, how we dispose of all the excess golf courses, both public and private?  

Bob, good news!  Sell them to The Metropolitan Government of Nashville and Davidson County for green space!


A public (almost):
http://nashvillecitypaper.com/content/city-news/city-scraps-plan-buy-nashboro-village-golf-course

Nashville's council looks like Lewis and Billy Ray buying orange juice futures at the Chicago Board of Trade.

A private:
http://nashvillecitypaper.com/content/city-news/council-finalizes-28m-purchase-ravenwood-country-club

An airport:
http://nashvillecitypaper.com/content/city-news/parks-board-approves-12m-purchase-cornelia-fort-airpark

Bogey

[BCrosby]

Bogey -

Interesting. Atlanta has similar issues.

While we are at it, maybe we get Atlanta to turn the Falcons pratice facility into greenspace? A higher and better use.

Bob

[Kalen Braley]

Bogey -

Interesting. Atlanta has similar issues.

While we are at it, maybe we get Atlanta to turn the Falcons pratice facility into greenspace? A higher and better use.

Bob

Harsh,

There are 20 other cities around the country who would have been happy to at least had their team make the playoffs!!

P.S.  I think its time to add one more wild card spot and only give the best team in each conference a 1st round bye to get the number of playoff teams to 14 without adding an extra week to the schedule.

[Mike Tanner]

Bravo, Mike Young. As a mostly publinx player and a taxpayer I like what you're saying. The golf business may be contracting, but the game of golf will surely remain vital with courses that are designed to be strategically interesting while being inexpensive to construct and maintain.
 

[Kris Shreiner]

Mike,

Thanks for the feedback and insights. We're on the same trail.

Niall,

I appreciate your concern for the egos in the industry.  We all can benefit from personal, healthy reflection on what we are contributing to: the game, to society, and to the planet's well being in general.

Golf will always be a game FIRST, though some insist on trying to ruin it in the name of profit or personal gain. Examine the evidence and the verdict is clear.

Cheers,
Kris

[Bruce Katona]

Adrian: Financing a 36 holer with spa in Greenland......funny!....and no chance of ever turning a profit or breaking even!

[Mike_Young]

Just seeing how my proclamation is doing 10 years later...

[Tom_Doak]

Just seeing how my proclamation is doing 10 years later...

Well, how many public golf courses did you build in the interim?


I've only got the re-do of Memorial Park to my credit, and we had to bust the budget on that place, to host the PGA Tour.  But at least it's playable now when it rains, which is all too often in Houston!

[Mike_Young]

Just seeing how my proclamation is doing 10 years later...

Well, how many public golf courses did you build in the interim?


I've only got the re-do of Memorial Park to my credit, and we had to bust the budget on that place, to host the PGA Tour.  But at least it's playable now when it rains, which is all too often in Houston!

None until recently and then someone forwarded this old thread to me this morning...I like the model they used at Winter Park and actually took these guys down to see it and discuss with officials before we got too deep...

[Tim_Weiman]

Just seeing how my proclamation is doing 10 years later...

Well, how many public golf courses did you build in the interim?


I've only got the re-do of Memorial Park to my credit, and we had to bust the budget on that place, to host the PGA Tour.  But at least it's playable now when it rains, which is all too often in Houston!

None until recently and then someone forwarded this old thread to me this morning...I like the model they used at Winter Park and actually took these guys down to see it and discuss with officials before we got too deep...

Mike,


Is another Winter Park in the cards?

[Mike_Young]

Just seeing how my proclamation is doing 10 years later...

Well, how many public golf courses did you build in the interim?


I've only got the re-do of Memorial Park to my credit, and we had to bust the budget on that place, to host the PGA Tour.  But at least it's playable now when it rains, which is all too often in Houston!

None until recently and then someone forwarded this old thread to me this morning...I like the model they used at Winter Park and actually took these guys down to see it and discuss with officials before we got too deep...

Mike,


Is another Winter Park in the cards?

TW,I really like Winter Park and the overall concept. 
It's safe to say the design construction model that was used there is going to be used more and more and I think some of these cities will put such courses in a foundation so they are not operated by city employees etc...hope all is well..

[Don Mahaffey]

Mike,
You know I like your work and your style, but I'm a little put off by the term "Winter Park Model".  I know you didn't phrase it exactly like that, but close enough. I was there and I don't even know what you mean when you use terms like "model".  Winter Park Golf Course is a result of two passionate young guys given an opportunity, and pouring all they had into it. Literally all they had. I think Keith used his house as collateral to get the bonding.
They managed to get the city to buy in to forming a partnership where the city provided public resources to improve a public park, under the direction of a design build style that Keith and Riley created that fit public work.  It was genius and I don't think it is easily copied. 

[Mike_Young]

Don,Sorry it comes off to you in that way.  For years I always saw the muni model of doing a golf course where they would RFP a design and then bid out to a large general contractor and end up with a product that just couldn't function.  What I mean by the Winter Park model is that they entrusted all of you to give them a design/build concept that saved them layers of cost.  That is a model I have not seen in many municipalities...and I hope we see it more...