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DMoriarty

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True or False? "Most of the best holes" are Doglegs.
« on: January 06, 2012, 02:37:57 PM »
In 1909 Henry J. Whigham wrote, "The principle of the 'Dog's Hind Leg,' as Old Tom Morris used to call it, is the underlying feature of most of the best holes."

True statement?

What is the principle of the "Dog's Hind Leg" anyways?
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Philippe Binette

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Re: True or False? "Most of the best holes" are Doglegs.
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2012, 02:46:46 PM »
John Low was saying that a good golf hole needed a feature that would break the line of charm (which is the straight line between the tee and the green) so... it produce doglegs or sliding holes.

I have a hard time remembering a dead straight hole with no bunkers or hazard between the tee and the green that was a great hole

Tim Nugent

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Re: True or False? "Most of the best holes" are Doglegs.
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2012, 02:56:58 PM »
Philippe, areyou confusing the issue? Whether a "dead straight" hole as bunkers/hazard along the lLOC doesn't change the fact that it is a dead straight hole and not a dog-leg (which infers that hole has an acute angle bend in the fairway)  Think of Pebble Beach  or TOC if you need some examples of good, non-dogleg holes.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2012, 03:34:27 PM by Tim Nugent »
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Jeff_Brauer

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Re: True or False? "Most of the best holes" are Doglegs.
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2012, 03:33:12 PM »

But, back when I was writing planning and building the golf course (as Tim's Dad's ghost writer......) I wrote, and Dick edited out a statement that the best holes dogleg, even if only 5 degrees.  A slight change of angle starts to set up strategy, although I suppose a straight hole with protruding hazards to create the S shaped fw would qualify as a great hole. 

In a context of 18 holes, a narrow straight hole could be a great change of pace. 

Good general rule, but as always, there are great exceptions.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tim Nugent

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Re: True or False? "Most of the best holes" are Doglegs.
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2012, 03:44:52 PM »

But, back when I was writing planning and building the golf course (as Tim's Dad's ghost writer......) I wrote, and Dick edited out a statement that the best holes dogleg, even if only 5 degrees.  A slight change of angle starts to set up strategy, although I suppose a straight hole with protruding hazards to create the S shaped fw would qualify as a great hole. 

In a context of 18 holes, a narrow straight hole could be a great change of pace. 

Good general rule, but as always, there are great exceptions.

Jeff, I guess one needs to define what they consider a Dog-Leg.  To me, they need to have an acute angle at the turn.  Many hole have a slight bend, like a banana of a few degrees, but I don't think that falls within the definition of a dog-leg.  What say you?
Coasting is a downhill process

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: True or False? "Most of the best holes" are Doglegs.
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2012, 03:47:15 PM »
Tim,

Your call!  But I tend to think any bend is a dog leg.

I also recall Cornish writing what a big controversy dog legs were when first introduced, since TOC had none.  An early version of not respecting golf tradition by then modern designers, I suppose.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: True or False? "Most of the best holes" are Doglegs.
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2012, 04:02:22 PM »
Jeff,
What about the 7th at TOC?
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Joel_Stewart

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Re: True or False? "Most of the best holes" are Doglegs.
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2012, 04:42:19 PM »
I think it's false but there is no correct answer.

Is the 18th at Pebble Beach a dog leg or the 17th at Cypress Point.  Slight bends yet the view is not obstructed?

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: True or False? "Most of the best holes" are Doglegs.
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2012, 05:23:24 PM »
I think false too
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Melvyn Morrow

Re: True or False? "Most of the best holes" are Doglegs.
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2012, 05:45:14 PM »
A forgotten art form in the annuals of GCA, pity as dog leg Holes offer that little bit more of a challenge due to the blind nature of the Hole. Problems occurs when allowance is made to easily bypass the dogleg by a high long aerial shot, so it’s down to the architects/designers to persuade golfers not to take the risk by clever design. Then the Hole comes into its own. Problem today, no architects will take the risk as aerial shots are regarded as the dog’s bollocks.

So if we are talking of doglegs then yes they can be a great additive and inspiration to a course, alas blind Holes are disliked by many as deemed too difficult or should I say not easy.

It has become a lost art in the design process

Melvyn

« Last Edit: January 06, 2012, 05:58:00 PM by Melvyn Hunter Morrow »

Adam Clayman

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Re: True or False? "Most of the best holes" are Doglegs.
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2012, 09:30:54 PM »
False. 10 @ Riviera. 9th and 16 @ Cypress. Just to name two.      Phillippe. Isn't the line of instinct the direct route to the hole?or, Was Beh'rs definition different than Low's? 
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Ronald Montesano

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Re: True or False? "Most of the best holes" are Doglegs.
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2012, 10:38:07 PM »
What do you call a hole whose fairway is straight from start to green, but is set at an angle to the tee?
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Melvyn Morrow

Re: True or False? "Most of the best holes" are Doglegs.
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2012, 12:54:17 AM »
Adam

Slight problem with your comment when the designer places a hill in the way - blinding the remainder of the fairway, then includes a dogleg, so perhaps true

Melvyn

Mike_Clayton

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Re: True or False? "Most of the best holes" are Doglegs.
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2012, 01:08:51 AM »
'I am often asked by committees why I have got so many dog-legged holes on my courses, and my reply is 'because almost every hole is dog-legged for certain classes of players'. Doglegged holes require judgement and headwork'

Alister MacKenzie



Ally Mcintosh

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Re: True or False? "Most of the best holes" are Doglegs.
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2012, 05:51:28 AM »
I guess that if we are looking for generalisations, the best holes (and best set up to the eyes from the tee) are slight doglegs with full visibility of the green from tee... But I much prefer good straight holes to severe doglegs....

But that's my preference and is open to a whole host of variables and exceptions...

The line of charm is the key though...

RDecker

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Re: True or False? "Most of the best holes" are Doglegs.
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2012, 08:48:32 AM »
Is the evolution of the "dogleg" an American contribution to golf?  In GB the courses tend to go out and back in a linear fashion many times whereas in the U.S. the courses were often built on bordered parcels of land thus the necessity to "shoe horn" holes into spaces and fit them to the alotted land.  Did land constraints inspire the Dogleg's popularity particularly in america?

Sven Nilsen

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Re: True or False? "Most of the best holes" are Doglegs.
« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2012, 09:04:17 AM »
How many dog legs are there at Pac Dunes?
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Carl Rogers

Re: True or False? "Most of the best holes" are Doglegs.
« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2012, 09:36:41 AM »
depends .... many holes do not play straight becuse of the bounce variablity

6th could be a slight dog leg, 9th is a dog leg (or at least seems that way), 12th has some bend left to it, 16th bends right, not sure about 18th.

Peter Pallotta

Re: True or False? "Most of the best holes" are Doglegs.
« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2012, 10:47:34 AM »
Well, what's the principle of the dog leg? That seems to be the key point/question. And I think the principle involved is the use/effect of angles -- which use at one and the same time provides a choice (i.e. a more conservative or more aggressive line) and a shot test (i.e. directional and distance control).  And that seems to sum up pretty well the most that a golf shot -- any full golf shot -- can offer and provide and demand of a golfer, i.e. both a mental and physical challenge, and one created/set-up by the individual/unique characteristics of the land/feature on any particular golf hole.  And since I think that, even more than today, architects like CBM and Whigham were talking about and seeking to create the very best, the ideal golf challenge/experience, then it must be that they were exploring the principles that provided a complete package (i.e. mental and physical and aesthetic components).  So, I would say, it is "True" that most of the best holes in golf involve the principle of the dogleg.  That this principle can be found/made manifest on a so-called "straight" hole is no contradiction; it's simple a matter of degree, in the sense that the angles involved (and/or created via the use of hazards and green contours) are more subtle, in every sense of the word.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 07, 2012, 10:55:30 AM by PPallotta »

BCrosby

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Re: True or False? "Most of the best holes" are Doglegs.
« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2012, 10:57:27 AM »
Peter -

Good post. MacK, Low, Simpson and others said something to the effect that all good holes - whether nominally straight or not - play in effect like a dogleg. In the sense that good holes involve picking (or not) playing angles. Actual dogleg holes usually make those choices more obvious. But it's the same idea.

Bob

Neil White

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Re: True or False? "Most of the best holes" are Doglegs.
« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2012, 11:32:25 AM »
DMoriarty,

I would say false as to agree would alienate all great par 3's would it not?  ???

The only time I see a dog-leg being a superior alternative to a straight hole is where the need for the dog-leg is due to a natural land form be it a hill, dune, water etc. 

A good strategic design can be achieved on a straight hole thru the effective use of tee location ( which may present with a dog-leg appearance ), bunkering and / or green angle.

Too often courses are littered with faux dog-legs which serve merely to add length to a course.

Neil.


John Chilver-Stainer

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Re: True or False? "Most of the best holes" are Doglegs.
« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2012, 11:57:47 AM »
Personally, I think “strong” dog-legs are used far too much in modern designs.

A dog-leg that deviates more than 12.5 degrees from the straight line dictates the shot required and removes the choices available in a  “slight” dog-leg or a straight hole.

Maybe 3 or 4 “strong” doglegs per round would be acceptable, but any more would get tedious.   

Sven Nilsen

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Re: True or False? "Most of the best holes" are Doglegs.
« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2012, 12:03:07 PM »
It seems to me that doglegs generally limit options.  You may be able to bite off a bit of the corner, but generally you're not faced with too many strategic choices on the tee.

Others in this thread have said it, but the best holes are those that demand you make choices.  Give me a wide short hole over a long narrow dogleg any day of the week.  You may end up playing two shots at fairly sharp angles to one another on the shorter hole, but you had to make the choice to take that route (all mishits aside).
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

DMoriarty

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Re: True or False? "Most of the best holes" are Doglegs.
« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2012, 12:40:18 PM »
One reason I posted the quote is because I suspect that the modern conception of what constitutes a dogleg is different now than Whigham's view was then.  So far I can figure, Whigham would have disagreed with many (but not all) of the comments made about doglegs thus far.  
- For example, I don't think Whigham would agree that a dogleg requires an "acute angle bend in the fairway."  
- I think he would have politely disagreed with the notion that TOC had no doglegs.  
- I am not sure why Melvyn is connecting the notion of dogleg holes to blindness, but I don't think Whigham saw it that way.  
- Riviera 10, CPC 9th, and CPC 16th, were offered as quality holes which were not doglegs.  I suspect that Whigham would have viewed all of these holes as rooted in the principle of the dog hind's leg.
- Joel Stewart asked about CPC 17th and PB 18th.  Again I suspect Whigham would consider them doglegs.  
- Others offered that a dead straight hole with protruding hazards from the side would not be a dogleg, nor would a "dead straight hole with bunkers along the LOC." Again I think Whigham would have disagreed with both notions.  
- If asked, I probably would have said NGLA's 18th as basically a straight hole, but to Whigham it was a "splendid example" of a hole rooted in the principle of the dog's hind leg.  
- Whigham's other examples - the Cape, the Leven, and the Sahara - are not necessarily holes fitting with some of the notions of the dogleg expressed above.  

That said, Philippe Bennette, Peter Pallotta, and Bob Crosby are all viewing the issue in a similar light to Whigham, I think, and they capture the idea pretty well.  I'd add as an observation that Whigham seems to describing from the concept from the golfer's perspective - how the golfer might choose to chart his course - whereas some of the modern conceptions focus on actual the physical shape of the the golf hole (or fairway) as determined and defined by the architect.   One doesn't find many discussions of acute bends in fairways from these old thinkers.  I think they viewed it more as a starting point and a golf hole, and it was left to the golfer to supply the turns.

Phillippe and Bob mentioned John Low.  Phillippe, does Low ever actually discuss the issue in terms of the line of charm, or are you paraphrasing?  Low's descriptions and explanations are so good it is hard to not just quote him endlessly, but here is a bit of what John Low wrote about the bee-line vs. the true line (terms I really like) in his terrific discussion of bunker placement.  The reference (I think) to the Beardie bunkers on the Long hole (14th) at The Old Course:

They are, it is true, almost on the bee-line to the hole; but golf need not be played in bee-lines. It is a mistake to suppose that because you hit a shot straight down the middle of the course and "find it bunkered you are to fill up the offending hazard. Next time you will play on the true line, not on the bee-line, and all will be well. There seem to me to 'be far too few "round-the-corner" holes in golf.  What a grand hole that present first hole is at Hoylake; how much more interesting than the bee-line business! The long hole inward at St. Andrews is also played in something of the same manner: the first shot to the right, the second to the left, the third to the right. . .

Low then returned to a discussion of the Pot bunker in the middle of the 9th fairway at TOC, near the green, and in the process expounded upon the importance of placing hazards in a manner which puts the onus on the golfer set his own angles and to chart his own course:

And, to return to my apology for the little pot so near the bee-line, I would submit that it too is a good hazard. There is plenty of safe ground to the left of our pot, 'but by going very near the difficulty we gain just a little distance and a slightly better position. The greedy golfer will go too near and be sucked in to his destruction. The straight player will go just as near as he deems safe, just as close as he dare. Just as close as he dare: that's golf, and that's a hazard of immortal importance! For golf at its best should 'be a contest of risks. The fine player should, on his way round the links, be just slipping past the bunkers, gaining every yard he can, conquering by the confidence of his own "far and sure" play. The less skilful player should wreck himself either by attempting risks which are beyond his skill, or by being compelled to lose ground through giving the bunkers a wide berth. Hazards which are cut across a course are bound with or against certain winds to be either ridiculous or detrimental. The true hazard should draw the play towards it, should invite the golfer to come as near as he dare to the fire without burning his fingers. The man who can afford to take the risks is the man who should gain the advantage. It is a coarse kind of hazard that only demands of the player that he should send his ball over it anywhere up in the air, in almost any direction. Yet how many such bunkers exist on modern courses, and how few of the finer side hazards, which must be coquetted with and passed within eye-glance if perfect play is to be made. There is probably no sight which the golfer's eye can see with such pleasure as the view of the ball after a long shot just slipping past the corner of a green-guarding bunker. By placing the hazards close in on the fairway, golf becomes a contest of risks, the perfect shot betters the imperfect, and accuracy gets its full reward.

Some may view Low's discussion as veering well off topic as it was about bunkers and bunker placement and doesn't necessarily address what we might consider the "shape" of the golf holes, but again I don't think these gentlemen necessarily thought of holes as having shapes like we think if it.  Rather, the golfer gave the hole shape by the "course" he chose between tee and the hole at the end.  I think Whigham and Low agreed that, for most golfers on most great holes, that that course would rarely be straight.
______________________________

Neil White, a good point about par threes.  I should have mentioned that Whigham was discussing holes generally requiring two or more shots to the green.  He had discussed one shot holes previously.   That said, I think there are at least some one shot holes which share common characteristics with the underlying principles at its most basic, but perhaps we should save that for another thread.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2012, 01:10:20 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

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Re: True or False? "Most of the best holes" are Doglegs.
« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2012, 01:07:27 PM »
Here is Whigham's discussion of the principle as it applied to the Sahara, Cape, Leven, and Home holes at NGLA .  (Note the hole numbers have the nines reversed.)

The shortest of the two-shot holes is the 11th, or Sahara, copied from the 3rd at Sandwich. The principle of this hole is one which may be used very frequently in different forms and disguises. A rough plan will explain better than words. The driver can risk as much of the bunker as he likes. If he goes straight on the hole he must carry 180 yards, and then he can reach the green or the edge of the green and has a good chance of a three. By playing more to the right he gets a carry of 160 yards only but cannot reach the green. Still, his approach is a short one and he has an easy four with a possible three. If he can only carry 130 yards or 120, he has to go still further to the right and has a long and difficult approach, so that the hole may cost him five strokes. In other words, courage and clean hitting are rewarded, while for the poorer player there is still a way around.

The same principle is applied at the 5th hole, which will be perhaps the most celebrated in the country. The actual distance from tee to flag is about 290 yards—one would have said the worst possible distance for a hole—but it works out beautifully. The hazard in this case is water. Here it is impossible quite to reach the green, but the fine driver if he likes to take a risk and go almost straight for the hole, may get within putting distance and so have a good chance for a three. But the least slice will carry his ball into Sebonac Creek; or if he fails to get 240 yards he will have a difficult little pitch shot onto the promontory. The man who can drive 200 yards may prefer to play fairly well to the left so as to be sure of opening the hole; but then he has a long approach onto the promontory. Finally, the short driver can get across the water by playing well to the left and carrying less than 100 yards; but he has a long second to play and may easily take a five. In fact, the hole is either a three or a four or a five, according to the way the tee shot is played.

The principle of the "Dog's Hind Leg," as Old Tom Morris used to call it, is the underlying feature of most of the best holes.  The 8th is another good example. Here the hole is about 330 yards long and the application is a little different. The long driver does not play straight on the hole but out to the left. If he can carry 180 yards, his second shot is an easy run-up to the flag, and he has a possible three and easy four.  Or, if he cannot, owing to wind, carry that distance, he can carry, say, 150 yards and pull his ball so as to end up well to the left.  Otherwise he as to play straight on the hole which is protected in front by mounds and beyond by a bunker, so that his approach is extremely difficult. There is a bunker to the right about 180 yards from the tee to catch a sliced drive.

Another splendid example is the 9th hole, 480 yards with a gradual slope uphill all the way.  The big driver can carry the bunker in a direct line and by doing so can practically get home in two, or so near home as to have a good chance at a four.  The poorer driver has to play more to the right and then he is confronted with a big carry for his second if he wants to play straight on the hole.  If he is afraid of it, he must play his second ball to the left, making his third a long and very difficult approach.  The green itself, by the way, standing on a bluff 60 feet above Peconic Bay, rivals Point Garry at North Berwick for picturesqueness.



« Last Edit: January 07, 2012, 01:28:00 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

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