Tom I am surprised to hear that as well. I would think they are after complete opposite ends of the spectrum. and as you noted not exactly close to each other in real life terms. Bill, I love the downhill version as well as knowing exactly where to go and where not to go. The traps are bad news and one must take that into consideration if one wants to challenge the pins in certain locations. Regardless of wind the hole plays as a redan should and the ball feeds beautifully through the green and makes for very exciting moments. As Sweeney knows, this was the hole on my second pass where I asked him about what the membership deal was.