Is a match play focused golf club possible in the US ?

[Tom_Doak]

Mark,

Of course, match play doesn't have to be a money game but at my former club there was a large contingent of guys who played for money because "it made them play and concentrate better ."  If a suggestion was made to this group to play a match for just a beer after the game, there would be considerable laughter.

Crystal Downs outlawed gambling a few years back after it got around that a couple of members were playing for big bucks with their friends.

The rest of the guys who used to play for a $5 Nassau started playing "for fun".

In one of the first matches after the ban, one team got down quickly after a few holes, and suggested to their opponents, "What do you say we double the fun?"  Still one of the best lines I have heard on a golf course.

[Tom_Doak]

As for Mike's original post ... I think there IS a market for that type of golf in the US.  Most people have never tried it for long enough to realize how fun it is; if they tried it, I think they would like it.

I haven't played for a score when I play with my associates for years now.  We always play matches, and it's always more fun that way.  The obsession with posting a score is one of the principal problems with American golf.

[BCrosby]

As for Mike's original post ... I think there IS a market for that type of golf in the US.  Most people have never tried it for long enough to realize how fun it is; if they tried it, I think they would like it.

I haven't played for a score when I play with my associates for years now.  We always play matches, and it's always more fun that way.  The obsession with posting a score is one of the principal problems with American golf.

Tom - If you were commissioned to design a match play only course - that is, one on which posting a score on each hole would not be required - what diffferent approaches might you take? I would imagine that your design options would be wildly expanded. I also imagine that it would be great fun to do.   

Bob 

[Jud_T]

Mark,

Of course, match play doesn't have to be a money game

Of course it does.

[Mike Sweeney]

Bob Crosby or others,

Just curious if you have any view from your research if the following had any effect on match play in the states:

Initially a match play event, the PGA Championship was changed to stroke play in 1958. Network television broadcasters, preferring a large group of well-known contenders on the final day, pressured tournament organizers to make the format change.

TV has had some reversal of fortune issues for golf.

[jeffwarne]

Mark,

Of course, match play doesn't have to be a money game but at my former club there was a large contingent of guys who played for money because "it made them play and concentrate better ."  If a suggestion was made to this group to play a match for just a beer after the game, there would be considerable laughter.

Crystal Downs outlawed gambling a few years back after it got around that a couple of members were playing for big bucks with their friends.

The rest of the guys who used to play for a $5 Nassau started playing "for fun".

Really?
I mean can you not announce a $5 nassau/dollar junk/?

[Jason Topp]

While I doubt a match  play club would work in the US (other than in a market with a shortage of golf courses) it does strike me that segmentation might be a way to boost play.

I see separate needs for the following groups:

1.  People that like to play quickly or have young kids - I see a lot of people in this group leave the game.  2 ball tee times and the right culture could get early tee times and get done quickly

2.  The regular foursomes - take the prime tee times

3.  5-balls - nice when you have 5 people and want to play together

4.  Beginners

5.  Twilight play

It would seem that rates/policies directed towards each group could increase play and create some clubs within a club.

[BCrosby]

Mike -

I've always been curious about why the old PGA match-play format was adopted in the first place. I say that because PGA events, as the descendants of older pro exhibitions, are about the exhibition of great golf by pros that people payed to see. Match-play is a second best way to do that.

I don't think the PGA started doing match play just to be different. Back in the day the US Am was a big deal and it's always been match-play. So I'm not sure why the pros went in that direction. I think the British PGA has always been medal, no?

I'd doubt the the PGA's change of format in '58 had much bearing on the popularity of match-play. Club golfers have always played some version of team match play. It will always be the most popular way to play.

Bob

 



 

[RDecker]

The Original sketch by Walter Hatch of my little Ross 9 holer contains no designation of par on any holes, only hole number and yardage.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mike -
I've always been curious about why the old PGA match-play format was adopted in the first place. I say that because PGA events, as the descendants of older pro exhibitions, are about the exhibition of great golf by pros that people payed to see. Match-play is a second best way to do that.
I don't think the PGA started doing match play just to be different. Back in the day the US Am was a big deal and it's always been match-play. So I'm not sure why the pros went in that direction. I think the British PGA has always been medal, no?
I'd doubt the the PGA's change of format in '58 had much bearing on the popularity of match-play. Club golfers have always played some version of team match play. It will always be the most popular way to play.

Bob

Bob,
It seems that it was Wanamaker's call:

"The PGA Championship was born in the mind of department store owner Rodman Wanamaker, who saw the merchandising possibilities in a professional golfers’ organization. Wanamaker invited some prominent golfers and other leading industry representatives to a luncheon at the Taplow Club in the Hotel Martinique in New York City. On Jan. 17, 1916, a group of 35 individuals, including the legendary Walter Hagen, convened for an exploratory meeting, which resulted in the formation of The PGA of America.

During the meeting, Wanamaker hinted the newly formed organization needed an annual all-professional tournament, and offered to put up $2,500 and various trophies and medals as part of the prize fund. Wanamaker believed that the Championship should be conducted similar to the British News of the World Tournament. That championship, a 36-hole elimination match-play tournament, was the PGA Championship of Great Britain."


Edit: How do players on the east side of the pond deal with this scenario?

A stripes one down the middle of a 520m hole, B puts two in the gorse. After B concedes does he play another for the hell of it, walk along with A and watch him play, or do they both just walk to the next hole and wait for the group ahead to tee off, if they've gotten there yet?
I would say that the first option is most likely on the west side of the pond, unless it's a four-ball, then I'd say that if one of the players on a side is OOB he would not put another ball in play.

Is there any amount of time saved in any of the scenarios, or is most of the time in match play wasted on the green becasue the player wants to putt out for score and handicap, even if he has already lost the hole. If it's a handicap issue then wouldn't a simple change to the rules make play go faster? How about removing the 'most likely score' provision and change it to say that once a hole is won all other competitors still playing the hole should be considered to have holed out with their next shot.  




  

[Mark Johnson]

I think this discussion how much less to do with match play as it does slow play.

At my club, you will never see a round in over 3:55 and we usually play in fivesomes.    We have created a culture where slow play is just not acceptable and assistant pros will not allow it to continue.    I actually played a round in a 9some this year,walking in under 4 hours.


If a player is slow, they will be slow whether they are in a 2-ball, 4-ball or six-ball.   It a cultural issue of what is acceptable and what is not.

I agree with Jason that there are different groups with different needs.   I tend to play in one of the first tee times so I can get home and be with my family.   if you are going to play a public course, you almost have to play early in order have a decent pace.

Of the groups Jason mentioned, I think it is group 3 that is probably the most troublesome.   These groups will want to play the same game they have always played in the time they always played from the tee boxes they have always played.   If you add a new pin position, the green chairman will likely get a letter from this group.   These are probably also the groups that are the most inclusive, dont want to play with anyone else and create a club within a club.

For this concept to work, I think you would need the following

1) would have to be a new club so you aren't walking on old traditions

2) would need to be more of a players clubs (e.g. very high % of single digit caps)

3) no tee times -- the walk up culture would really make the match play concept work

4) be part of a "league" unofficial or official to drive the culture


From a practical purpose, the best way to do this would likely be through league play.   A 2-ball evening league course be a great way to wind down after work.   Doing it on weekend morning, is probably not possible since you are seeing the most golfers stuck in their ways here.

[Brett_Morrissy]

Mark,
Could you explain a little please about what a league is, and how it works?

[Mark Johnson]

Mark,
Could you explain a little please about what a league is, and how it works?

An organization competition during over several months with prizes at the end of the season.

In this example, if you have 12 teams (6 tee times), you could do an 11 week round robin followed by a couple weeks of playoffs.

Leagues generally fall into 2 types

1) where there is the same format every week and standing throughout the season and sometimes playoffs

2) where the event changes every week (eg Net score by flight, lowest putts, most Greens,  low 2 net out of foursome)  and the prizes are usually weekly

[BCrosby]

Thanks Jim. Interesting about Wanamaker.

Though your match play question was about speed of play, the situation you posed was one that was enormously controversial in the history of the rules. John Low, the chairman of the R&A rules committee for about 20 years, originally took the view that in match play, if you lost a ball or hit it ob, you automatically lost the hole. The rule being that as soon as a player was unable to finsih the hole with the ball he teed with, the hole was lost. Without regard to what your opponent did subsequently. It was the old local R&A rule. Low, being a Tory, wanted to keep it.

The rule was eventually changed to the current rule for a number of reasons, but the main one was that it impeded merging medal and match play rules.

What I am curious about (apparently alone) is how old traditional match play rules of that sort, i.e. where there were situations when you finish a hole with the ball in your pocket, would affect architecture. I think the requirement that players must post a score on every hole is a constraint on how you can design a hole that would not exist to the same degree if a course were played exclusivley under match play rules.

Bob

[Jim_Kennedy]

Bob,
That lost ball/loss of hole rule was adopted in 1882 by the R&A and it was in the USGA's book in 1895. Seems like it hung around until 1920.
In one set of rules I read it did not include a ball lost in water, other hazards, or OOB. A rule like that would not make anyone too fond of seeing deep rough lining the fairway, whereas today we can go back to the original spot, drop or re-tee, and continue. 

Would that make the liberal use of deep rough a modern occurrence?

 

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Surely, a matchplay-focussed club doesn't have to be exclusively matchplay. At those East Anglian clubs where matchplay (and foresomes in particular) is the norm there are also strokeplay competitions.

At Wilmslow the first and tenth tees are very close together and time bands are allotted for two-ball play from one tee, three and four from the other - notice the word 'ball', not players. They are banded in two-/two and a half-hour slots so that in summer up to 10am singles and foursomes go from the 1st, three and four balls go from the 10th. From 10.30-12.30 singles and foursomes go from the 10th, three and four balls from the 1st. And so on. New matches starting at these times therefore alternate with earlier starting similar format matches that have completed nine holes. It works well. There are certain tee reservations for members only for a short time on Mondays and Fridays and Wednesdays are ladies' day. This last concession is in debate as from next year ladies will be equal members of the golf club in all ways, including annual subs.