[Mike Sweeney]

I spoke with Tom Paul earlier today and he updated me on some the work he is doing for/with the USGA Archives. We covered a range of topics and after we hung up, I realized that Tom had a pretty good idea somewhere in that conversation.

Is there a market for a Match Play Golf Club (public and/or private) for American golf? I say American because much of the golf played overseas is still match play. It is part of the culture.

Here in the US, for a variety of reasons, we are a stroke play culture. The “arms race” for a lower score has pushed technology versus golf course architecture to the limits.  Reality of stroke play is it takes 4+ hours for a foursome, and that is a burden in the modern world for a family guy.

Thus, is there a market for match play FOCUSED golf club in certain markets?

Mike Keiser created a walking only golf resort in the middle of nowhere. Is there not room in each market for a golf club where:

*       Friday afternoon, Saturday and Sunday morning are ALL match play. That means you lose a hole, you pick up your ball and move to the next hole.
•   3 hour rounds at peak times are the norm.
•   More relationships are created between golfers due to the intimacy of match play.
•   Each match can play a variety of tees.
•   The Pro/Competition Committee can introduce a variety of matches Fourball, foursomes, singles…..to keep it interesting.
*      With more players able to play at peak times due to shortened rounds, you could have more members and reduce cost.
•   Public golf might be tough, but again Bandon broke the mold in the US.

Thoughts?

[PCCraig]

Mike,

I think it's a very neat idea. It actually reminds me of squash in that while players are a member of the same club, a head-to-head matches forces you to meet new people and play essentially a different game (by playing a different player).

While I think it might be tough to pull off on a entire club basis, I think it would be more possible to do say every Sunday, or a certain afternoon, as match-play only times. Would make for a neat reoccurring event.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mike,
At the price it costs to play at Bandon Resort do you think many guys are picking up their ball when out of the hole?

[Jud_T]

Doesn't Friar's Head and maybe a couple other clubs have no scorecards or yardage markers?  Is the culture there any different?  LOVE the idea...

[Mike Nuzzo]

We played an alternate shot sixsome in 2* hours last week and had a blast

*it was our 2nd round of the day and in carts

[Mike Sweeney]

Mike,
At the price it costs to play at Bandon Resort do you think many guys are picking up their ball when out of the hole?

Please read again:

Thus, is there a market for match play FOCUSED golf club in certain markets?

I mentioned Bandon as a it is an example of a hyper-niche idea (walking only) in the US market. I agree with you and I do not think it would work at any high end resort.

[JMEvensky]

Modeled on the 2-ball clubs in the UK or truly a club where only match play is allowed?

I'm not certain either one is doable.Even though most weekend club golf is probably match play already (Nassaus),getting members to pick up on a lot of holes would be a tough sell.They pay their dues--they're going to get their money's worth.

Also,IMO,the true stroke play guys are frequently the better players.They might be an even tougher sell.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mike,
I re-read your post, it was the last bullet point that threw me.

I like the idea of match play times, but hasn't it been generally accepted that match play is already the dominant game at private clubs?

[Mike Sweeney]

Mike,
I re-read your post, it was the last bullet point that threw me.

I like the idea of match play times, but hasn't it been generally accepted that match play is already the dominant game at private clubs?

Jim

Reality is we play matches while we play stroke play in the US, myself included. In order to keep a real handicap, we play out each hole. I carry a scorecard to keep my score.

We never play alternate shot in the US except maybe outings that have scrambles.

Overseas is a different mind-set. They play match play and it goes to the roots of the game before handicaps existed. You played matches and did not care about your score. Either you beat Sweeney or you beat Kennedy.

Pat Craig,

The squash analogy came up in the conversation with Tom Paul.

[Terry Lavin]

NFW

[JMEvensky]

NFW

Actually,this is what I was trying to say.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mike,
I agree, it's almost impossible to get a group of guys to play alternate shot, even at their 'home' course. We do it occasionally, but in our evening games it's usually wolf. You hit one OOB, you walk (or ride); once the score is tied, everyone else picks up. Goes fast, even with 6 to 9 guys.

In lieu of waiting for such a club to become a reality could you get a match-play club started with guys in similar circumstances as yours? With planning two or three foursomes could lock up the early times at a mutually agreeable course.

[Jud_T]

get a renegade club to use the CONGU system for members exclusively.

[Howard Riefs]

Doesn't Friar's Head and maybe a couple other clubs have no scorecards or yardage markers?  Is the culture there any different?  LOVE the idea...

FH scorecard looks to be match play focused. "Handicaps" and "Matches" as headers. No yardage.




Source: http://www.golfblog100.com/2009/12/friars-head.html

[Jim Eder]

If it was me I would remove the Par as well. Par is pretty irrelevant in a match play situation in my opinion.

[Mike Sweeney]

Mike,
I agree, it's almost impossible to get a group of guys to play alternate shot, even at their 'home' course. We do it occasionally, but in our evening games it's usually wolf. You hit one OOB, you walk (or ride); once the score is tied, everyone else picks up. Goes fast, even with 6 to 9 guys.

In lieu of waiting for such a club to become a reality could you get a match-play club started with guys in similar circumstances as yours? With planning two or three foursomes could lock up the early times at a mutually agreeable course.

I agree with most here. Who needs to and who wants to change club culture of a full club?

This is really an economics and golf culture question as many clubs are below capacity.

I was thinking about a club like LuLu in Philadelphia, which is in limbo right now. Very good course, certainly not a championship course. Now you compete against the local clubs by increasing membership to 500 or so with membership at a 50-75% of the cost of local full service country clubs.

* Golf only
* match play at prime time, stroke play at off peak time
* 3 hours rounds
* you get x number of prime time rounds per season

[Kalen Braley]

I was thinking this would probably have to be a Private club where guys know each other...preferrably a smaller club thats well established. I just don't see how this would work at all on any type of public course.

As for the frequency, I would change it so perhaps you make every other weekend, or every 3rd weekend be "match play" weekend.  Even in a small club, there has still got to be plenty of guys who want to play stroke play and by making all the premium days be match play, that would probably just not fly.

I personally would love to play match play more, but just have a really hard time finding anyone else to do the same.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mike,
That could be an excellent way to market a club that's in limbo, although adding a reservation system for match players, one that lets them book the prime times up to two days beforehand, would be less restrictive and give the course the option to go to open play when the match play requests are over. That could even work at a public course, especially with access/monetary incentives to finish in 3 hours or so during prime time.  

[Jim Eder]

This is a very intriguing idea but it seems highly unlikely here in the States. It is very Honourable Company. Maybe in the New York area or a few other areas could it be possible but it would have to be a private, Golfers club. If we all on this site were in the same place it might work and would be a lot of fun. Best ball and alt shot matches. What a way to play!! Of course there would have to be kimmel in the bar.....................................

[Ally Mcintosh]

Is this not a difficulty mainly because of the handicapping system in the States?...

Am I wrong or do all your rounds count towards your handicap?... Therefore you score your ball almost all times you play?

Whereas in GB&I, it is only the monthly medals and nominated singles competitions that count towards handicap... So all other games, even if not actual competition matches, do not require balls to be scored... Hence all friendly rounds are inevitably matchplay...

[BCrosby]

An interesting idea. A pure match play course ought to open up design possibilities that would not be acceptable otherwise.

Specifically, one of the boundary conditions on a hole for medal play is that all players must be able to post a score on it.  

That is not a limiting factor when the course is only match play. Holes can be much more dramatic in the sense that there would be no obligation to provide a 'safe' route to the hole for weaker golfers. They would just lose the hole. Forced carries, water, gorse, marsh, gunge might all figure far more dramatically, even to the extent of making finishing the hole impossible for some players. (Think of the 17th at the Stadium Course. Now think of it at 190 yards.)

Such match play 'hard' courses - if done well - could be designed to cut both ways (unlike the 17th at TPC), for both stronger and weaker players. Drama would be ratcheted up considerably. Again, if you don't have to post a score on a hole, why not?

All sorts of design possibilites would present themselves. The mind reels.

Bob

[jeffwarne]

Doesn't Friar's Head and maybe a couple other clubs have no scorecards or yardage markers?  Is the culture there any different?  LOVE the idea...

FH scorecard looks to be match play focused. "Handicaps" and "Matches" as headers. No yardage.




Source: http://www.golfblog100.com/2009/12/friars-head.html

How does no yardage encourage match play or fast play?
and having the holes not handicapped certainly doesn't promote match play.
Does it add 10 minutes to a round to self handicap the holes?
Friar's head members get around at a good pace, but it's got nothing to do with a scorecard.


The culture in the UK is golf at a quicker pace (and many of the courses are built to accomodate that-particularly if playing off the 5900 yard yellow tees )
But I'm sure I never had a UK opponent/playing partner bully me into picking up my ball, nor have I ever seen one pick up if I hole out from off the green for a win unless another group was waiting.

Teach people to walk briskly, play when their turn, and limit practice swings.
Slow players play slow in every format.
fast players the same.
Skipping 1/2 the round isn't the answer, playing faster is.


That said, I can't fathom playing with someone who did not want a match and whose idea of a game was to play every hole to the bitter end and  simply add it all up at the end.

[Mark Chaplin]

We have four weekends each year with six round knockouts, two are singles and two alternate shot. The August singles and alternate shot are open to visitors as well. Needless to say there are consolation rounds as well for the defeated.

[Tim Martin]

Mike-I don`t know how viable it is but I love the idea. Years ago I used to play in a game at a 9 hole private late on Friday afternoons that pitted 5 against 5 all in the same group at match play. As soon as you were not a factor you picked up and it almost always was finished in less than 4 hours. Nobody was worried about their score. Great fun.

[Tom Birkert]

I think it would have to be some sort of society, comprised of like minded members, who had access to relatively empty courses for it to work.

I am not sure a stand alone club could work.

In the UK there is a society called the Match Club, I think they meet for dinner a few times per year and games are set up, people wager on them etc. All games are played match play, with presses starting every time there is a two hole swing.

It is our culture over here to play matchplay. It just isn't - in my experience - the prevalent culture in the US, although at the better clubs it seems much more common. But then your handicap system dictates you have to record your score. Ours does not.

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