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Sean_A

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Apache Stronghold: Current Reports???
« on: January 05, 2012, 06:44:33 AM »
All

Does anybody know what the story is with AS?  if open, is it in playable condition?

Can anybody link me to a photo tour?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

jeffwarne

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Re: Apache Stronghold: Current Reports???
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2012, 09:36:15 AM »
Sean,
If you search apache stronghold in the GCA search function (for whatever reason I have to hit search twice)
there's a photo tour from Dec 2009 by Dan Moore
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

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Tyler Kearns

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Re: Apache Stronghold: Current Reports???
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2012, 10:09:13 AM »
Sean,

I too would be interested in hearing some recent reports, I'm hoping to get out there in March. Are you heading to Phoenix this winter?

TK

Bruce Wellmon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold: Current Reports???
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2012, 10:09:51 AM »
I called them several weeks ago. They said they were open. I have not been yet.

Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold: Current Reports???
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2012, 11:02:40 AM »
I called them several weeks ago. They said they were open. I have not been yet.
I'll be out there in about a month... The way it's was reported the course shut for about 6-9 months starting in early 2009. There was a change in the leadership on the White Mountains tribal council that runs the casono/golf course. The new guy was not a golfer so he didn't understand the concept of 'loss-leading' activities to attract the gamblers from Phoenix (2 hrs away by car). The miserable SOB probably cancelled the 'all you can eat' $5 buffet too... :)

Anyway, after seeing what it did for business, they decided to re-open the course. The whole thing took about a year. I'll take some photos and post to GCA so people can see the before/after.
Next!

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold: Current Reports???
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2012, 02:16:45 PM »
In adequate condition the course is very good.  In great condition, I imagine the course would be at least comparable in quality to Pacific Dunes or Barnbougle. 

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold: Current Reports???
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2012, 02:37:25 PM »
In adequate condition the course is very good.  In great condition, I imagine the course would be at least comparable in quality to Pacific Dunes or Barnbougle. 

Jason,

That sounds like a pretty bold statement....Pacific Dunes is ranked in pretty elite company!

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold: Current Reports???
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2012, 03:31:30 PM »
In adequate condition the course is very good.  In great condition, I imagine the course would be at least comparable in quality to Pacific Dunes or Barnbougle. 

Jason,

That sounds like a pretty bold statement....Pacific Dunes is ranked in pretty elite company!

Best desert course I've ever played.  Great collection of holes that uses every feature available.  Black Mesa would be close, but fairway misses are not as punitive at Apache.

On an Arizona website, I saw a review from last June that said the course was in terrific condition under the guidance of a new director of golf.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold: Current Reports???
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2012, 04:04:26 PM »
In adequate condition the course is very good.  In great condition, I imagine the course would be at least comparable in quality to Pacific Dunes or Barnbougle. 

Jason,

That sounds like a pretty bold statement....Pacific Dunes is ranked in pretty elite company!

Best desert course I've ever played.  Great collection of holes that uses every feature available.  Black Mesa would be close, but fairway misses are not as punitive at Apache.

On an Arizona website, I saw a review from last June that said the course was in terrific condition under the guidance of a new director of golf.

I plan to play Black Mesa in a few months, so very much looking forward to that.

Not quite sure how to make a distinction on what a desert course is or isn't though.  Looking at my "Courses Played" list, it would appear Redlands Mesa is the highest one on my list, although many would debate if that even qualifies.

But then again, based on the pics I've seen of Black Mesa, I don't know if I would call that a desert course either.  Is Ballyneal in a desert?  Or Wine Valley? Or Murphy Creek?

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold: Current Reports???
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2012, 04:08:05 PM »
In adequate condition the course is very good.  In great condition, I imagine the course would be at least comparable in quality to Pacific Dunes or Barnbougle. 

Jason,

That sounds like a pretty bold statement....Pacific Dunes is ranked in pretty elite company!

Best desert course I've ever played.  Great collection of holes that uses every feature available.  Black Mesa would be close, but fairway misses are not as punitive at Apache.

On an Arizona website, I saw a review from last June that said the course was in terrific condition under the guidance of a new director of golf.

I plan to play Black Mesa in a few months, so very much looking forward to that.

Not quite sure how to make a distinction on what a desert course is or isn't though.  Looking at my "Courses Played" list, it would appear Redlands Mesa is the highest one on my list, although many would debate if that even qualifies.

But then again, based on the pics I've seen of Black Mesa, I don't know if I would call that a desert course either.  Is Ballyneal in a desert?  Or Wine Valley? Or Murphy Creek?


Black Mesa and Apache Stronghold are both in high desert terrain.   You will love Black Mesa.  Play from the middle and hit lots of 5-wood tee shots!

I don't equate them to Ballyneal's environment, it's more "chop hills."

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold: Current Reports???
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2012, 04:12:15 PM »
In adequate condition the course is very good.  In great condition, I imagine the course would be at least comparable in quality to Pacific Dunes or Barnbougle. 

Jason,

That sounds like a pretty bold statement....Pacific Dunes is ranked in pretty elite company!

Best desert course I've ever played.  Great collection of holes that uses every feature available.  Black Mesa would be close, but fairway misses are not as punitive at Apache.

On an Arizona website, I saw a review from last June that said the course was in terrific condition under the guidance of a new director of golf.

I plan to play Black Mesa in a few months, so very much looking forward to that.

Not quite sure how to make a distinction on what a desert course is or isn't though.  Looking at my "Courses Played" list, it would appear Redlands Mesa is the highest one on my list, although many would debate if that even qualifies.

But then again, based on the pics I've seen of Black Mesa, I don't know if I would call that a desert course either.  Is Ballyneal in a desert?  Or Wine Valley? Or Murphy Creek?


Black Mesa and Apache Stronghold are both in high desert terrain.   You will love Black Mesa.  Play from the middle and hit lots of 5-wood tee shots!

I don't equate them to Ballyneal's environment, it's more "chop hills."

Why would I do that...my 5 wood is just as crooked as my 3 wood, and not as long!!  ;)

As for desert courses I've always had a tough time defining them.  Even RCCC in Montana could be considered to be in "a high desert" transition area.  Ditto for a fair amount of courses I've played in the Salt Lake City area.

Perhaps we need a thread to define key characteristics of what a desert course is.

Kalen

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold: Current Reports???
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2012, 05:48:15 PM »
RCCC is desert. Sagebrush is desert. Most of the west is technically classified as desert.
The variation in temperature make for different flora and fauna.

"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold: Current Reports???
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2012, 06:07:10 PM »
It's a terrific course with one wonderful hole after another.  I had a great time there in '06...the problem was the conditioning.  They budgeted next to nothing for it, and it was dry as a bone...(see my thread from '06 for pics...)
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Andy Troeger

Re: Apache Stronghold: Current Reports???
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2012, 07:43:53 PM »
Kalen,
I think you'll do ok at Black Mesa. You'll probably hit a couple into the desert, but I'm sure I will too. The 16th is very intimidating, but a good number of the other holes have decent width. Paa-Ko is the ball-eater of the two for me.

I'm not sure I'd put it quite as high as a couple of the others, but Apache Stronghold if kept up well would most certainly be one of the best courses (overall, not just public) in Arizona. I think Forest Highlands and WeKoPa Saguaro might be the only two I would prefer. I think Pacific Dunes and Black Mesa are both in pretty rare air, so it doesn't go quite that high for me. It was playable when I was there a few years ago, but pretty rough. I'd happily go back if someone can confirm that its in better condition--if its still really rough its tougher to justify the detour to the middle of nowhere.

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold: Current Reports???
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2012, 08:47:55 PM »
In adequate condition the course is very good.  In great condition, I imagine the course would be at least comparable in quality to Pacific Dunes or Barnbougle. 
Definitely agree.
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Gene Greco

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold: Current Reports???
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2012, 11:19:54 PM »
In adequate condition the course is very good.  In great condition, I imagine the course would be at least comparable in quality to Pacific Dunes or Barnbougle. 

Agreed.

My favorite Doak.
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold: Current Reports???
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2012, 12:47:43 AM »
In adequate condition the course is very good.  In great condition, I imagine the course would be at least comparable in quality to Pacific Dunes or Barnbougle. 

Agreed.

My favorite Doak.

It might be mine as well but I would want to play it a few more times. 

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold: Current Reports???
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2012, 10:33:10 AM »
In adequate condition the course is very good.  In great condition, I imagine the course would be at least comparable in quality to Pacific Dunes or Barnbougle.  

Agreed.

My favorite Doak.

Gene, I hardly expected you to join the cry of the Doak sycophants.  Are you really agreeing that this course has the bones of a top five modern golf course?   Or have you been taking a few clandestine hits from the laughing gas?

Seriously, I'd appreciate you and others explaining your reasoning for holding this course in highest regard.  You, DK and JT are no slouches in my book.

Bogey
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold: Current Reports???
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2012, 10:48:16 AM »

At one time, Apache Stronghold was the best public golf course in Arizona.

Not one of the top 5 modern.

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold: Current Reports???
« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2012, 10:58:15 AM »

At one time, Apache Stronghold was the best public golf course in Arizona.

Not one of the top 5 modern.

Understood.   But the contention submitted above was that it was "at least comparable in quality to Pacific Dunes."  Since Golfweek rates Pacific Dunes as the 2nd best modern course, that statement suggests Apache Stronghold is top two and perhaps the equal of  Sand Hills. 

Bogey 
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

George Freeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold: Current Reports???
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2012, 11:11:17 AM »
I'm with Bogey on this one.

I've always heard good things about AS (despite the conditioning), but I have never heard it mentioned as "perhaps as good as Pacific Dunes and Barnbougle", arguably two of Tom's best courses and arguably two of the best courses in the world (regardless of public/private, modern/classic).  Not to mention that this statement has been made by a few different people.

All I can say is AS just climbed way up my "need to see" list!

Mayhugh is my hero!!

"I love creating great golf courses.  I love shaping earth...it's a canvas." - Donald J. Trump

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold: Current Reports???
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2012, 11:16:42 AM »

Seriously, I'd appreciate you and others explaining your reasoning for holding this course in highest regard.  You, DK and JT are no slouches in my book.

Bogey

Bogey:

I played the course five or six years ago and it was not in very good condition.  Hence my opinion could be the residue of fading memory or the joy of paying almost nothing for playing a course I found magical.

Nonetheless, I thought the place had incredibly interesting terrain used very well.  Holes that stood out to me included the par four on the front nine with a green saddled within a couple of small hills, a short driveable par four set on a side slope with a very shallow green, a long par four on the back that allowed one to use the back of some diagonal hills to significantly shorten the approach and a terrific redan.  I can't remember hole numbers at this point.

I recall the other holes as being very solid.    Beyond the individual holes, however, I thought that the place was a terrific walk.  It has a very expansive feel and I ditched the cart after nine holes when I realized it was not needed.  There are a ton of very interesting land formations that are used in a way to make the course enjoyable but not an exersize in mountain climbing.  The terrain is constantly shifting in both direction, slope  and elevation.  I thought the greens had the best combination of interesting contour without becoming a chore.

The two other Doak courses I would rate most highly have some drawbacks not present at Apache.  For me, Pacific feels a bit cramped.  Perhaps that feeling is due to the nature of the first and eighteenth holes.  I find the green undulations a bit tiring after a while.  Sometimes I want to have a manageable par if I have managed to hit a green in regulation.

Barnbougle carries the disadvantage of a  largely straight out and back routing resulting in long series of holes in similar wind conditions.  

When you add the plusses and minuses together of each course and imagine Apache Stronghold maintained in the manner it could be maintained, I suspect I would choose Apache first over those other options.  

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold: Current Reports???
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2012, 11:22:37 AM »
I called them several weeks ago. They said they were open. I have not been yet.
I'll be out there in about a month... The way it's was reported the course shut for about 6-9 months starting in early 2009. There was a change in the leadership on the White Mountains tribal council that runs the casono/golf course. The new guy was not a golfer so he didn't understand the concept of 'loss-leading' activities to attract the gamblers from Phoenix (2 hrs away by car). The miserable SOB probably cancelled the 'all you can eat' $5 buffet too... :)

Anyway, after seeing what it did for business, they decided to re-open the course. The whole thing took about a year. I'll take some photos and post to GCA so people can see the before/after.

look forward to hearing your report ANthony..I am nowhere near a conditioning freak but when  i played it in 2009 I think right before it closed and it was in awful shape/it looked like it had been abandoned
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Apache Stronghold: Current Reports???
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2012, 11:25:14 AM »
Thanks Jason.  Interesting that in checking the linked thread Jonathan Cummings observed:   "The rhythm of the routing is nearly unequaled in all of golf."  This from another gent that really knows his stuff.  

I'm rethinking my need to get out there, particularly since ragged conditions don't bother me one bit - it's what I grew up on.

It's notable that Ran's Profile now lists the course as NLE.

Bogey
« Last Edit: January 06, 2012, 11:34:00 AM by Michael_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....