[Brian Stewart]

I have to say I'm pretty surprised to see it compared to Pacific Dunes as well.  I've played AS maybe 10 times and almost all of them when it was in good condition.  It has been several years admittedly and I also live in AZ so I'm more used to the surroundings but I would have called it a very good course at best.  I certainly wouldn't have put in the same class it has been mentioned here.  Not bad in any way or anything like that, just not in that class.

I'll probably go play it again this summer if it is in good condition to see if I'm missing something or my memory is not as good as I think.  

[Kalen Braley]

I've played Pacific Dunes, but not Apache....

...and in my book, PD is a solid 9, maybe even a 9.5 on the DS.  And the company it resides in on the Golf Digest top 100 in America is extremely lofty.  (#15 on the overall list, #2 on the Public list).

So I'm genuinely interested to learn how AS is comparable to this.  If it really is this good, this is quite the revelation!  Especially considering that other well regarded courses like Prarie Dunes, Riviera, SFGC, Bethpage Black, LACC, Bandon Trails, Ballyneal, The Ocean Course are all ranked well below PD.

[Tom_Doak]

I am always amazed when people tell me they think Apache Stronghold is my very best course.  Of course, I wouldn't want to agree; I think we've gotten better at what we do over the past 13 years.

I really liked that piece of ground.  And, I didn't think of it yesterday, but that is another course where we had a free hand from the client ... their only requirement was that it start and finish close to the casino!

But, I tend to think that most of the people who say they like it better than Pacific Dunes are people who saw it before Pacific Dunes was built, and are trying to gain a bit of street cred for having discovered us before we were well known.  It's a sentimental choice ... like most of the people who prefer Bandon Dunes to the other three courses at Bandon.  Of course, watching it struggle financially has been difficult, and has probably hardened my feelings for it.

[Jason Topp]

But, I tend to think that most of the people who say they like it better than Pacific Dunes are people who saw it before Pacific Dunes was built, and are trying to gain a bit of street cred for having discovered us before we were well known.  It's a sentimental choice ... like most of the people who prefer Bandon Dunes to the other three courses at Bandon.  Of course, watching it struggle financially has been difficult, and has probably hardened my feelings for it.

Tom

As you suggest, deciphering the hidden factors that underlie opinions is difficult.  Another factor is expectations.  I played Apache with trepidation regarding the conditioning and the experience far exceeded expectations.  It would not have been possible for Barnbougle or Pacific Dunes to exceed my expectations.

As to your expectations that you are improving, I can't really comment because I have not seen enough of your courses to know.  Generally, do the careers of most architects reflect an upward trend in quality?  I suspect the record is a mixed bag. 

[Sean_A]

Tom

I don't know, FROM PIX ONLY, Apache is one of the three courses of yours I would like to see most; the others being Ballyneal and Old Mac. 

All - thanks for the input. A friend of mine is visiting AZ shortly and wanted a reco or two which didn't break the bank like the many $200 choices he was offered and said no thanks to.  As always, when things turn to AZ golf I think first of Apache.

Ciao

[Bill_McBride]

I am always amazed when people tell me they think Apache Stronghold is my very best course.  Of course, I wouldn't want to agree; I think we've gotten better at what we do over the past 13 years.

I really liked that piece of ground.  And, I didn't think of it yesterday, but that is another course where we had a free hand from the client ... their only requirement was that it start and finish close to the casino!

But, I tend to think that most of the people who say they like it better than Pacific Dunes are people who saw it before Pacific Dunes was built, and are trying to gain a bit of street cred for having discovered us before we were well known.  It's a sentimental choice ... like most of the people who prefer Bandon Dunes to the other three courses at Bandon.  Of course, watching it struggle financially has been difficult, and has probably hardened my feelings for it.

I think Apache Stronghold has some holes that are as good as anything at Pacific Dunes (#4, #10!, #16).  What it's missing is the Pacific Ocean.

One thing I loved was the walking paths through the desert from tee to fairway.  Until I started wondering about those pesky rattlers....

[Tom_Doak]

As to your expectations that you are improving, I can't really comment because I have not seen enough of your courses to know.  Generally, do the careers of most architects reflect an upward trend in quality?  I suspect the record is a mixed bag. 

It depends on the individual, and what motivates them.  

You certainly ought to get better as you gain experience.  But, do you use that experience to reduce the time you spend on each project?  Do you start designing more conservatively once you have a reputation to protect?  

In my business model, it's also been a case of getting better as my associates gained more experience.  Jim Urbina had run some jobs before Apache Stronghold, but that was the first really good piece of land he'd gotten to work on, and he was excited about it -- and it shows.  But now that Jim and Bruce Hepner are doing his own thing, are their replacements ready to step up to take on more responsibility, and add their own enthusiasm -- and is someone else ready to step in and be the next great shaper?  I had a real dream team going for a while, but it's inevitable that the guys on the lower rungs need opportunities to grow into more responsibility, the same as their predecessors did.

P.S. to Sean:  Tell your friend to check the weather before he goes.  It's quite a bit cooler up in Globe than down in Scottsdale.  There are some days in January and February when it's too cold to play ... March is really the ideal month up there.  [These weather facts didn't really help with their business plan, either, since January and February are when it's so busy down in the valley that people would like to escape for a day.]

[Doug Wright]

I've always been a fan of Apache Stronghold. With the scenic drive from Phoenix it has the feel of a destination course that one anticipates. I've played AS in good condition and bad (ie dirt fairways) and enjoyed it in both. The routing, use of the topography/barrancas etc. and location of greensites are impeccable.

I can see Tom Doak's point about improvements he's made to his work (and that of his colleagues) since Apache Stronghold. The craftmanship at a course like Pacific Dunes or Old Macdonald (even CommonGround) really stands out; there are some rough edges around Apache Stronghold that may be a function of when it was done or the budget, or both--I don't know. But it is really a fun golfing experience and worth a trip particularly if the conditioning is OK.

[Tom_Doak]

The craftmanship at a course like Pacific Dunes or Old Macdonald (even CommonGround) really stands out; there are some rough edges around Apache Stronghold that may be a function of when it was done or the budget, or both--I don't know.

Part of that is that working in the desert soils is not as easy as working in sand.

Part is spending more time and effort [and the $ that goes with them] on the finish work.

And part is that at Apache Stronghold, we did the work with mostly Apache laborers [plus Jim, Kye Goalby, and Randy Ray].  Some of the Apaches were pretty good, but none of them had any golf experience at all -- a far cry from our more recent projects where the kids on the crew have previously worked at National, Bandon, St. Andrews, etc.

[Gene Greco]

In adequate condition the course is very good.  In great condition, I imagine the course would be at least comparable in quality to Pacific Dunes or Barnbougle.  

Agreed.

My favorite Doak.

Gene, I hardly expected you to join the cry of the Doak sycophants.  Are you really agreeing that this course has the bones of a top five modern golf course?   Or have you been taking a few clandestine hits from the laughing gas?

Seriously, I'd appreciate you and others explaining your reasoning for holding this course in highest regard.  You, DK and JT are no slouches in my book.

Bogey

Mike:

    When I played Apache Stronghold ten or so years ago I had done so prior to visiting my daughter at Univ of Arizona and immediately after playing some of the more well regarded courses in Scottsdale, including Desert Forest, which at the time was the top rated course in AZ.

My daughter, son in law and new grandchild all now live in Oro Valley. I have since had the opportunity to play most everything in Tucson as well.

Apache Stronghold, at the time I played it, remains the best golf course I have played in the State of Arizona.

The fairways were not as well conditioned as your average muni.

But everything else was golf as I love it.

No housing. Startling vistas. Quiet. Enchanting.

 The walk was an adventure, an expedition discovering golden nuggets of cool landforms and architectural features at every twist and turn.

I remember enjoying all the holes with the par 3s being especially good.

I also remember getting a severe leg cramp walking up to the elevated 18th tee.

The greens were superb and in fantastic condition. The contouring was not overdone (!!!!!) and the grass used was the closest in feel to that of Sand Hills I have putted on either before or since.

Tom D  shouldn't dismiss the positive comments made above about AS by a number of regular posters/well traveled golfers so readily.

Furthermore, if I were building a new golf course and Tom was my architect I might take note.











 

[JC Urbina]

Update,

I get calls every now and again from the Nation regarding doing some work at Apache Stronghold.  Over the years I have made trips back to check on the place and I am usually greeted with open arms.  The last time I was there it needed some work but nothing a little TLC wouldn't solve.  So I continue to wait and see if the right people embrace what they have and choose to freshen up the place.

  The place is magical, teaching 80 Apache nation members how to build a golf course was one of the more enjoyable things I had ever done.   The landscape that we had to work with was unbelievable and a lot of funny stories to go around, I remember telling Neil the project manager I was going to get some videos from the GCSAA and show the crew what a golf course looked like, we took a break from the afternoon sun and went into the casino conference room and watched videos.  I even took the greens construction crew down to the local nine hole golf course to show them what a green would  look like when were done.  I learned a lot about the Apache Way and I became a friend to a lot of the locals.  If I knew how to post pictures I would show you are construction crew.  One of the requirements of the job was that we had to hire local labor to build the golf course, I had no problem with that. 

I remember one of the first days I walked the property I met with the Tribal council and then I told them I was going to go look at the site.  They told me to stay out of the washes because mountain lions would wait for cattle and other prey to walk up the channels and pounce on them.  I remember flagging the site for clearing and I got the two casino helpers to go with me.  We would walk up on a lookout point and I would tell them where I wanted the hole to play.  Then we would go own into the brush and they would ride their horses and shout out to me where to tie the flags for clearing. We would do that all day then I would have to go back and walk the site again to make sure I had it right.  You fall in love with places like Apache Stronghold, you spend so much time on site  the crew becomes your extended family and the golf site like your backyard.

A few of my favorite holes, 2,4,10,11,13  you feel like your out in the middle of nowhere.  I have walked the other 18 holes that could be built on the site, really special land.

[Bill_McBride]

Jim, I could really feel what you are talking about when I played two rounds there in 2004.   Much juju or mojo, whatever you would want to call the mystical quality of the place.  As mentioned above, I loved the walks from off the front of the tees through the desert to the fairway.   

I picked 4, 10 and 16 for favorite holes, so we agree pretty much!   I loved the creek on 10 that plays like a diagonal hazard. 

[David Kelly]

I picked 4, 10 and 16 for favorite holes, so we agree pretty much!   I loved the creek on 10 that plays like a diagonal hazard. 

10 is one of the most original holes I have seen. Alternate fairways but the decision off the tee is not left or right, its front or back.

[Kirk Gill]

Just called the pro shop to see if they're open, and they are. Dormant bermuda fairways (did not overseed this year), bent greens, $25. Wish I could get down there right now.

[Tom_Doak]

When we built the course, I recommended bermuda fairways, but they had some consultants involved who overruled us on the basis that they could avoid the costs of overseeding.  But trying to maintain bluegrass fairways up there would have been difficult for the best superintendent in the country, and the tribe didn't hire him.

Dormant bermuda is the perfect option.  I'm glad to hear that they're not overseeding ... it's the right thing to do environmentally, and for the long-term health of the grass.

[Tom Yost]

On an Arizona website, I saw a review from last June that said the course was in terrific condition under the guidance of a new director of golf.

Hmm...  I have not been out there for nearly two years. If this is true, then it is great news indeed, but I'm skeptical.

On my previous visits, I saw nothing that would lead me to believe there was any qualified superintendent being employed.   It is such a good layout that the neglect just makes me want to cry.   

Despite the rough conditions, I am pretty much up for a visit anytime.  Save for one other local nutcase, none of my regular golf buddies have any interest in driving over there.  If anyone is coming in to see it and doesn't mind some company, please give me a shout out, I'd love to join you.

[Jud_T]

I'm still pissed that I couldn't convince my buddy to head out there when I was in town.  Should have left him behind...

[Mark Smolens]

Tom, trying to wangle another trip to the Valley in February -- will contact you as I'd love to give AS another try. . .

[Tim Bert]

Posting this photo for Jim Urbina.  It's a great pic of those that contributed to the construction of the course.  I'm doing it from my phone and I think it may have lowered the resolution. If it isn't good, I will repost from a computer when I have a chance.

[scott_wood]

I'm still pissed that I couldn't convince my buddy to head out there when I was in town.  Should have left him behind...

This may illustrate the "working definition" of a golf friend, or even  if one "loves the game"....

I always chuckle at some of my home club member's refusal to drive to Globe, and experience AS,
( very nice drive, btw) yet profess how good this or that course is they played.....
They are the poorer for that lack of curiousity......

Will report back, as a buddy and I are playing AS in three weeks....for the third time in ten years...
but can't take advantage of the package rate (room, dinner, breakfast, golf with carts, and sleeve @$119)
As they are sold out for a concert........

[Tom Yost]

I tracked down the review Bill may have seen.  It is from a web site primarily focused on providing up-to-date info on "conditions."   Posted by a fellow I have not met but have traded some messages with, so if he says conditions are improving, I really want to believe it.

"This is one of my favorite layouts of all time. Tom Doak is brilliant in his design of this course throughout the canyons in an area that is otherwise bleak and desolate. The problem with this course has always been the conditions. It has been poorly run and poorly maintained throughout the years. That may be changing. Played on back to back days 6/25-26/2011 and the course is in as good a condition as I have ever seen it. I attribute that to a new director of golf, who in talking with him, has exciting plans to bring the course back to the conditions that once had it rated a Top 100 course in the country. The greens were in good condition . . there were a few bare spots, they they are much fewer than in past visits. The tee boxes were very good. The course plays as mostly dried bermuda, so it doesn't look great from tee to green, but it plays very well. ...  I am excited about the progress I have seen at this course under the new director, and am doubly excited about what could be ahead! This layout is one of the best you'll ever see, and with conditions improving (still need to do something about the bunkers) it is well worth a drive to play!"

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Tom and others,

Please note that the above review was after playing AS in June.  As I've said before in the other thread, conditions are better there when the weather gets warmer and grass grows. Since AS does not enjoy the same warmer winter weather as the Valley of the Sun, winter conditions can get iffy there. I'll wait until April to visit unless I can be persuaded to take a 2 hour drive each way to play there.

[Bill_McBride]

I tracked down the review Bill may have seen.  It is from a web site primarily focused on providing up-to-date info on "conditions."   Posted by a fellow I have not met but have traded some messages with, so if he says conditions are improving, I really want to believe it.

"This is one of my favorite layouts of all time. Tom Doak is brilliant in his design of this course throughout the canyons in an area that is otherwise bleak and desolate. The problem with this course has always been the conditions. It has been poorly run and poorly maintained throughout the years. That may be changing. Played on back to back days 6/25-26/2011 and the course is in as good a condition as I have ever seen it. I attribute that to a new director of golf, who in talking with him, has exciting plans to bring the course back to the conditions that once had it rated a Top 100 course in the country. The greens were in good condition . . there were a few bare spots, they they are much fewer than in past visits. The tee boxes were very good. The course plays as mostly dried bermuda, so it doesn't look great from tee to green, but it plays very well. ...  I am excited about the progress I have seen at this course under the new director, and am doubly excited about what could be ahead! This layout is one of the best you'll ever see, and with conditions improving (still need to do something about the bunkers) it is well worth a drive to play!"

That's the one, Tom.  Popped up in a Google search.   Hope it's true.

[Anthony Butler]

Generally, do the careers of most architects reflect an upward trend in quality?  I suspect the record is a mixed bag.  

It depends on the individual, and what motivates them.  

You certainly ought to get better as you gain experience.  But, do you use that experience to reduce the time you spend on each project?  Do you start designing more conservatively once you have a reputation to protect?  

Tom-I think that applies to a craft but not an artistic endeavor. Most music groups... even the good ones... release their best stuff within 10 years of forming. Very few novelists improve after their first 4 books. Only the greats continue to get better...

Of course, most artistic endeavors start from a blank sheet of paper, whereas in a business-related activity the people with money should theoretically recognize your talent and provide you with better opportunities.

I would argue that golf course design and construction is primarily a craft practiced within a business environment, so your output should continue to improve... if you have any reservoir of talent.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom-I think that applies to a craft but not an artistic endeavor. Most music groups... even the good ones... release their best stuff within 10 years of forming. Very few novelists improve after their first 4 books. Only the greats continue to get better...

Of course, most artistic endeavors start from a blank sheet of paper, whereas in a business-related activity the people with money should theoretically recognize your talent and provide you with better opportunities.

I would argue that golf course design and construction is primarily a craft practiced within a business environment, so your output should continue to improve... if you have any reservoir of talent.

Anthony:

I think you have that right; or, at least part of creating a great golf course is craftsmanship.  In truth, I don't know that I'm getting any better at my own part in recent years -- it's the craftsmanship end of things that keeps improving the finished product.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()