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Patrick Kiser

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Re: San Diego Country Club - Hidden Gem (Front & Back Nine Posted)
« Reply #75 on: January 08, 2012, 12:13:46 PM »
Which holes at SDCC stood out for you guys and why?

For myself as I mentioned, I felt the par 3s were particularly good.  Maybe not as much variety in distance as I might prefer, but plenty variety in their shape, size and how they played.

I think the 6th is REALLY good.  A natural hole if I've ever seen one.  So simple yet so effective.  I just wish those bunkers in the back would go.

A lot of good par 4s too, but the strength was in the par 3s I think.
“One natural hazard, however, which is more
or less of a nuisance, is water. Water hazards
absolutely prohibit the recovery shot, perhaps
the best shot in the game.” —William Flynn, golf
course architect

Anthony Fowler

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Re: San Diego Country Club - Hidden Gem (Front & Back Nine Posted)
« Reply #76 on: January 08, 2012, 03:26:37 PM »
I agree with everyone's points about the par 3's and the variety of holes.  I think it's one of those courses that you can remember really well after just one round because there's so much variety and the holes don't blend together in your head. 

In addition to the par 3's, two holes that stand out for me are #4 and #10.  Both have really cool ground movement such that you won't get a flat lie for your approach shot.  10 fairway is pitched so hard from left to right that it can be hard to hold the fairway.  Both have really big, dramatic greens but you need to be in the correct section or the correct side of the hole or you're going to have a really difficult two-putt.  I also like the fact you can run it into both of these greens, so even a beginner could enjoy these holes (not that they're easy). 

I also agree with Robert in regards to the greenside bunkers.  They present a challenge and I agree that they blend nicely with the greens.  GCAers haven't criticized the similar style that you see in Australia or Southern Hills.  One downside of the bunkers is that the faces are pretty firm, so the ball always rolls down into the flat part of the bunker.  Also, I've seen some of the members putt out of the bunkers with regular success.  In theory, I would like to see more variability with bunker shots and a greater chance of funny lies.

Patrick Kiser

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Re: San Diego Country Club - Hidden Gem (Front & Back Nine Posted)
« Reply #77 on: January 08, 2012, 03:51:51 PM »
One downside of the bunkers is that the faces are pretty firm, so the ball always rolls down into the flat part of the bunker.  Also, I've seen some of the members putt out of the bunkers with regular success.  In theory, I would like to see more variability with bunker shots and a greater chance of funny lies.

That's actually very Sandbelt in nature.  I could see attempting to putt out from such firm faces. 
“One natural hazard, however, which is more
or less of a nuisance, is water. Water hazards
absolutely prohibit the recovery shot, perhaps
the best shot in the game.” —William Flynn, golf
course architect

DMoriarty

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Re: San Diego Country Club - Hidden Gem (Front & Back Nine Posted)
« Reply #78 on: January 08, 2012, 11:03:57 PM »
Peter,

I was curious about why the yardages on back don't match up so I took a look. It seems that in 1929 when William P. Bell was "modernizing" the short par three 16th hole was scrapped and a new short hole added from the what was the 11th tee to a new green toward but just short of what had been the 15th green (but would become the 16th with the new numbering after the par three had been added.) The next hole  (the 12th) utilized the same green as the old 11th but played from a new tee which was built to the right of the new par three green, making the hole a slight dogleg of about the same distance as the old 11th.  Confusing description I know but essentially it sounds like they scrapped a par three, added a par three earlier in the routing, and played to the next green from different location.  Looking at your aerial, it looks as if the original routing went from the 11th tee to the 12th green, across what eventually became a lake and the 8th green for a lengthened version of that hole.

1921WW    1929WPB
1st   360      1st  377
2nd  410     2nd 435
3rd   164     3rd 180
4th   505     4th 453
5th   388     5th 393
6th   186     6th 185
7th   317     7th 331
8th   468     8th 466
9th   385     9th 393
10th 480   10th 472
xxxx         11th  147
11th 320   12th 369
12th 198   13th 203
13th 449   14th 477
14th 382   15th 389
15th 525   16th 535
16th 139   xxxx      
17th 321   17th 405
18th 425   18th 405

So essentially from the 11th through 16th you need to shift the order by one.

Additional changes included slightly lowering the 9th green, lengthening the 17th (new tee to the right of and in back of the 15th green (which became the 16th green after the changes) and a new 17th green suitable for longer shots. Additionally there was a new green at the second hole built against side of hill making the hole 15 yards longer, improving drainage, and eliminating blind approach shot. 
« Last Edit: January 08, 2012, 11:57:05 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Patrick Kiser

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Re: San Diego Country Club - Hidden Gem (Front & Back Nine Posted)
« Reply #79 on: January 09, 2012, 01:41:04 AM »
David,

The '21 WW yardages are from an LA Times article and I've questioned them myself because I too noticed the big changes between now and against those same yardages that have made me doubt the LA Times article.  For all we know those were proposed yardages.  But who knows...

I wish I had access to more, but unfortunately I'm not coming across much in either the USGA periodicals or the LA84 articles from American Golfer and Golf Illustrated.  Maybe you have access to the Country Club and/or Pacific Coast Golfer issues?

Would be great to know I think.

“One natural hazard, however, which is more
or less of a nuisance, is water. Water hazards
absolutely prohibit the recovery shot, perhaps
the best shot in the game.” —William Flynn, golf
course architect

DMoriarty

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Re: San Diego Country Club - Hidden Gem (Front & Back Nine Posted)
« Reply #80 on: January 09, 2012, 12:07:19 PM »
I've no reason to doubt the 1921 yardages, or that Watson originally designed the course.  I haven't seen the LA Times article but there are a number of articles from San Diego papers indicating that Watson designed the course in 1920 and it opened in 1921.  The same yardages are listed, give or take a few yards.

Bell was brought in to modernize the course in or around 1929, but it was not a complete revision, and although the bunkers were modernized and three or four new greens built, most aspects of the original Watson layout remained.   I don't have the articles in a form to post or send right now, but here is a bit of a summary from my notes taken while reading the articles.

Summer 1920.  Land in Chula Vista secured and Watson hired to make a survey and lay out the course.  (Land was actually leased from a development company but it may be that the club or aspects of the club controlled the development company.)

1920 - 1921.  Progress reports on the course very favorable.   Watson touted as architect top architect responsible for many top courses (aside: courses include White Bear Yacht Club)

Sept. 3-5 1921.  All grass Watson course opens with three days of tournament festivities.

Summer 1924. Overzealous chair of green committee and professional play Pebble and other Monterey courses and decide they know enough to tinker with Watson's work [my editorializing here obviously.]   Build some new tee boxes, plant trees between holes to make course harder and prettier [and to block those pesky views of the ocean]  Tee on 17th moved, bunkers added to limit golfer's options.


Circa 1924ish - Nines swapped and swapped back, maybe a few times.  Reference to Watson having been architect.

pre-summer 1927. Possibly other unspecified tinkering.

Summer 1929.  Bell directing "modernization" work at Chula Vista.  Not a redo or a complete revision.   Reportedly one new hole, three new greens, general re-trapping to replace old deep pits with bunkers which drain better.   Major changes a new short hole fit between 11 and  twelve.  Scrap short 16th hole. New green for 2nd 15 yards longer and to the left.  Lower 9th green.  New tee on 17 and new 17th green.   Maybe new green on first hole (to left of old green) as well. Course now 6615.   

I looked at the SDCC website, and I see they credit Bell with the original design.  An understandable error I am sure, but this is not accurate, I don't think.  So many contemporaneous reports indicate that it was Watson, and that Watson was involved throughout construction.  I guess it is possible that Bell was working for Watson during the construction, but there is no mention of him in any reports I have seen, and the reports leave no doubt that it was proudly a Watson course.     

As you know Bell was quite active in San Diego and environs more toward the end of the 1920's, and he certainly became the more-hyped designer in the late 1920 and into the 1930s.  This was especially so in San Diego because of his involvement in the large Mexico project, and so many other prominent projects in the region.  At some point perhaps the club decided they would rather be associated with Bell than Watson, or more likely they just lost track and since everything else in the area had Bell's name on it, and since they knew Bell had been there, they started to consider it a Bell course. 


When it comes to credit where credit is due, I would be surprised if there is any old dead designer who has gotten the proverbial golf course shaft as often as Watson.  Bell is under appreciated today considering his body of work, but he is a cult legend in comparison to Watson. 

Hope this helps, I'll get you some articles when I have time. 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Patrick Kiser

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Re: San Diego Country Club - Hidden Gem (Front & Back Nine Posted)
« Reply #81 on: January 09, 2012, 12:28:49 PM »
David,

Extremely helpful.  I'll have to make time to look into these articles at some point when I visit the San Diego History Center.  I'd really like to get my hands on an early aerial, if there happens to be one.  I think that just means putting in the grunt work to find out.

The timelines are interesting too, because the photo I posted of the 3rd from back in the day dates from ... 1925 (e.g. not 1929).  If I've learned anything from Tommy already is that just because it might look like a bunker from XYZ doesn't make it so.  But the bunker with the frilly edges sure looks like a Billy Bell bunker in style (if he ever had one).  It's always possible the date of 1925 by the club is off too.  Who knows...  All I know now is the bunker look is VERY different from that presented on the 18th in the very early days.

All very good stuff and I'm now glad we're surfacing this.  I'm certainly learning a thing or two here.

I'll try to post the LA Times article later this evening for all to see.

I wish we could unearth some additional photos from the time of opening.  Now that would be cool.



“One natural hazard, however, which is more
or less of a nuisance, is water. Water hazards
absolutely prohibit the recovery shot, perhaps
the best shot in the game.” —William Flynn, golf
course architect

DMoriarty

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Re: San Diego Country Club - Hidden Gem (Front & Back Nine Posted)
« Reply #82 on: January 09, 2012, 01:05:26 PM »
A really old aerial would be great. I'l bet there is one somewhere and there must be photos as it was a well-publicized, popular course, but I don't have either.   Not sure about the bunkers in that 1925 photo and I wonder about the date of the photo.   The descriptions of the bunkers pre-modernization made them sound very "pit" like, and those don't seem to fit with that description.  

Here is your aerial with the routing.  I hope you don't mind that I have also marked in blue what I think was probably the approximate routing in 1921 (except that of course some holes have been lengthened and trees planted etc.  
-- As you can see, the front nine is basically the same, except the green sites on the 2nd and probably the 1st have been shifted somewhat, and as you know the 8th was quite a bit shorter and didn't have that pond.    
-- On the back, the 11th hole was not previously there, and instead the course played from the same tee area to the current 12th green.  I've drawn it straight but perhaps it was a dogleg right.  I've guessed as to where exactly the scrapped 16th hole fit, as well as the location of the original tee on the 17th, which was lengthened and I think changed.  Your guess would definitely be better than mine as you have been there, but I was working off your comments about the land on the 17th.

« Last Edit: January 09, 2012, 06:58:59 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

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Re: San Diego Country Club - Hidden Gem (Front & Back Nine Posted)
« Reply #83 on: January 09, 2012, 04:19:00 PM »
Patrick,

I emailed you some articles relating to the Watson design.  Here is an July 14, 1929 San Diego Union article outlining the changes that Bell was to make to the course.   (In addition to these, it was reported that he also built a new first green to the left of the old 1st green.)



Note the description of the bunker changes.  
« Last Edit: January 09, 2012, 04:27:05 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Patrick Kiser

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Re: San Diego Country Club - Hidden Gem (Front & Back Nine Posted)
« Reply #84 on: January 09, 2012, 05:11:24 PM »
Wow!  Great stuff David and thanks for doing the superimposed routing adjustment.  All very interesting.

It sounds like drainage was one of the reasons and DS hinted to me this possibly could be the case.

« Last Edit: January 09, 2012, 05:15:11 PM by Patrick Kiser »
“One natural hazard, however, which is more
or less of a nuisance, is water. Water hazards
absolutely prohibit the recovery shot, perhaps
the best shot in the game.” —William Flynn, golf
course architect

Patrick Kiser

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: San Diego Country Club - Hidden Gem (Front & Back Nine Posted)
« Reply #85 on: January 09, 2012, 06:43:00 PM »
If it's not an issue, I will share this information with the club.

This last article is eye opening.

- Hole No.2 is rather flat as a fairway now and it appears this was leveled.  Previously it was a blind shot into the green...
- Hole No.3 I had a feeling the bunker to the left was not original.  Or at least, not as original.  It was just a guess, but it's interesting to see the article clearly showing how the shot off that side hill was in place beforehand.
- Hole No.6 calls for a sand face on side of bank to the right.  Not in place today...
- Hole No.17 calls for a new tee and green.  There's that risk / reward ridge I had a feeling about.  A lot happened to this one it seems...  
« Last Edit: January 09, 2012, 07:54:31 PM by Patrick Kiser »
“One natural hazard, however, which is more
or less of a nuisance, is water. Water hazards
absolutely prohibit the recovery shot, perhaps
the best shot in the game.” —William Flynn, golf
course architect

DMoriarty

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Re: San Diego Country Club - Hidden Gem (Front & Back Nine Posted)
« Reply #86 on: January 09, 2012, 07:14:12 PM »
Feel free to share the info if you think the club might be interested.

If leveling was done on the 2nd fairway it must have been sometime later, as WPB was just planning on moving the green.  I read the comments about the third green as indicating that there was a bunker left but that it must have been smaller and higher up on the hill.  As for the 17th, part of the change might have been necessitated by doing away with the original par 3 16th. Also from the suggestion I'd guess the original green was small and hard to hold.   

I modified the routing adjustment above to reflect the apparent location of the old short 16th.

Here is a 1924 photo labeled 18th green, but judging from the location of the clubhouse I suspect this may have been during the period when they had the nines reversed.  I included it because, although the bunkers are not totally visible, it may give some idea of the original Watson bunker style on this course.   

Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Patrick Kiser

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Re: San Diego Country Club - Hidden Gem (Front & Back Nine Posted)
« Reply #87 on: January 10, 2012, 12:59:49 AM »
Posting the articles specific to Willie Watson.  It turns out there were several of these and there are probably more.  Thanks to David and others for sharing.

April 6, 1920, Evening Transcript (San Diego)




June 1, 1920, San Diego Union




June 13, 1921, Evening Transcript




June 27, 1920 San Diego Union




August 2, 1921, Evening Transcript




August 14, 1921, San Diego Union




August 22, 1921, LA Times

« Last Edit: January 10, 2012, 01:54:40 PM by Patrick Kiser »
“One natural hazard, however, which is more
or less of a nuisance, is water. Water hazards
absolutely prohibit the recovery shot, perhaps
the best shot in the game.” —William Flynn, golf
course architect

Patrick Kiser

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: San Diego Country Club - Hidden Gem (Front & Back Nine Posted)
« Reply #88 on: January 10, 2012, 01:32:16 AM »
Something else has caught my attention on the 11th from the '53 aerial.

I might have mentioned this previously, but we see the 11th having not one ... but two greens!  They are side by side.

I have no proof or evidence and would have to dig further on this, but I'd suggest the 11th was moved to the left in order to make room for extending the 8th.  So twice it could have been changed.  Once in the 1929 work by Billy Bell, Sr. then again by or before '53 when the 8th would have been extended.  The tee to the 11th probably is the same or about the same area even today, given how the 9th and 10th end up.

It looks like the 8th could also have been redone not once (to extend it), but a second time to add the pond and redo the green.  Again, this is just from looking at the '53 aerial and now.

11th from '53:



Aerial adjusted for 11th:

« Last Edit: January 10, 2012, 01:37:11 AM by Patrick Kiser »
“One natural hazard, however, which is more
or less of a nuisance, is water. Water hazards
absolutely prohibit the recovery shot, perhaps
the best shot in the game.” —William Flynn, golf
course architect

Tom MacWood

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Re: San Diego Country Club - Hidden Gem (Front & Back Nine Posted)
« Reply #89 on: January 10, 2012, 06:51:51 AM »
Those are fascinating articles. Do you know the dates?

Watson has to be one of the most under appreciated west coast architects of the golden age, and without doubt one the most prolific out there. In my estimation he was the most prolific. That first article is the first time I've seen his name associated with Sunset Hill in St. Louis, and the third or forth time I've seen him being credited with White Bear Yacht. I just checked WBYC's website and they are still claiming to be a Ross design (no mention of Watson).

Another interesting thing about Watson, he never went by the name 'Willie' always William. I have probably written about a hundred fifty articles written about him and only one calls him Willie. Cornish & Whitten is probably to blame for that misnaming. Another unusual thing about Watson I think I've only seen one or two photos of the man, and the photo in C&W is not him. That guy does look like someone who may have gone by the name Willlie.

Patrick Kiser

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Re: San Diego Country Club - Hidden Gem (Front & Back Nine Posted)
« Reply #90 on: January 10, 2012, 11:13:47 AM »
My understanding is he did not like to be called Willie, but I'm too lazy to spell out William...  ;D

Maybe David can provide some dates, but they just about would have been from 1921 or into 1922.  The LA times article dates from 8-22-1921 and it states the course is about to open.  However, another article states the opening occuring soon on Jan.1 ... and I assume that's likely a 12-1921 article.  Maybe they had some delays between August and January.  Not sure.

It's all very interesting stuff I think, but what's pretty clear is it was a WW effort with him involved from the get go.  It wasn't WW handing things over to Billy Bell, Sr. to do everything.
“One natural hazard, however, which is more
or less of a nuisance, is water. Water hazards
absolutely prohibit the recovery shot, perhaps
the best shot in the game.” —William Flynn, golf
course architect

Jim Eder

Re: San Diego Country Club - Hidden Gem (Front & Back Nine Posted)
« Reply #91 on: January 10, 2012, 11:48:15 AM »
Patrick, David and everyone else,

Thank you very much for the terrific articles!!  Just fantastic stuff!! So insightful and helpsul in understanding the history.  THANK YOU!!

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: San Diego Country Club - Hidden Gem (Front & Back Nine Posted)
« Reply #92 on: January 10, 2012, 01:02:34 PM »
Patrick,  I should have explained that date and abbreviated newspaper name were in the name of the attachments I sent you, with the date in YYYYMMDD form.  

From top to bottom:

April 6, 1920, Evening Tribune (San Diego)
June 1, 1920, San Diego Union
June 13, 1921, Evening Tribune
??  (Article not from me, I don't think)
June 27, 1920 San Diego Union
August 2, 1921, Evening Tribune
August 14, 1921, San Diego Union

Patrick maybe you can add the dates and papers above so they are together?
___________________________________________

TomM,

The mention of White Bear doesn't surprise me either, but the mention of Sunset Hill did.  I had read that Sunset Hill was created by the Foulis Brothers and I have never seen anything connecting it to Watson.   There would eventually be a Sunset Hills in southern california, but not this early, I don't think.
____________________________________________

Earlier Pete L suggested that the greens did not feel like WPB greens in part because of their tremendous size.   Many of the articles about Watson's work mention that he built very large greens.   I wonder if that helps explains why the greens at SDCC are large?  

Pete, if you are still reading, do you think it possible that some of the larger greens were the vestiges of the originals, or do did you get the impression that they had been rebuilt many decades after the fact?
« Last Edit: January 10, 2012, 03:30:18 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Patrick Kiser

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: San Diego Country Club - Hidden Gem (Front & Back Nine Posted)
« Reply #93 on: January 10, 2012, 01:55:43 PM »
Patrick,  I should have explained that date and abbreviated newspaper name were in the name of the attachments I sent you, with the date in YYYYMMDD form.  

From top to bottom:

April 6, 1920, Evening Transcript (San Diego)
June 1, 1920, San Diego Union
June 13, 1921, Evening Transcript
??  (Article not from me, I don't think)
June 27, 1920 San Diego Union
August 2, 1921, Evening Transcript
August 14, 1921, San Diego Union

Patrick maybe you can add the dates and papers above so they are together?


Done.  What do you know ... I had them in order almost, except for the LA Times article.
“One natural hazard, however, which is more
or less of a nuisance, is water. Water hazards
absolutely prohibit the recovery shot, perhaps
the best shot in the game.” —William Flynn, golf
course architect

Pete Lavallee

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Re: San Diego Country Club - Hidden Gem (Front & Back Nine Posted)
« Reply #94 on: January 10, 2012, 02:38:49 PM »
Pete, if you are still reading, do you think it possible that some of the larger greens were the vestiges of the originals, or do did you get the impression that they had been rebuilt many decades after the fact?

David,

Both my plays were prior to the "GCA era" but my distinct impression was that the greens were too large to be consistant with the Billy Bell courses I had played in the LA area. They just seemed like something built in the 60's and not a product of the Golden Age. However, unlike Pat Mucci, I could be wrong.
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Patrick Kiser

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Re: San Diego Country Club - Hidden Gem (Front & Back Nine Posted)
« Reply #95 on: January 10, 2012, 02:39:40 PM »
David,

I'm not sure if you've looked into this or not, but in the June 13, 1921 article by John Shaw he states he intends to "... in a few days to give you a detailed description of this course...".

I wonder if he ever produced these additional details within another Evening Transcript article.

Might be worth looking into, when and if time permits.
“One natural hazard, however, which is more
or less of a nuisance, is water. Water hazards
absolutely prohibit the recovery shot, perhaps
the best shot in the game.” —William Flynn, golf
course architect

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: San Diego Country Club - Hidden Gem (Front & Back Nine Posted)
« Reply #96 on: January 10, 2012, 03:29:09 PM »
From the Sept. 5, 1921 Evening Tribune.  (Note above I mistakenly called this paper the Evening Transcript.)

Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Patrick Kiser

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: San Diego Country Club - Hidden Gem (Front & Back Nine Posted)
« Reply #97 on: January 10, 2012, 03:57:22 PM »
David,

I'm going to ask you for the plans next, if you keep coming up with such great stuff...  ;D

Interesting note:  "... superior to both of the Los Angeles Courses, from any standpoint you wish to discuss..."

This in reference to the "Ambassador" and the Los Angeles Country Club - North courses.

That's a pretty strong endorsement even back then, but this is 1921 ... before the North course underwent the big changes under George C. Thomas / Billy Bell, Sr. in 1927 / 1928.
“One natural hazard, however, which is more
or less of a nuisance, is water. Water hazards
absolutely prohibit the recovery shot, perhaps
the best shot in the game.” —William Flynn, golf
course architect

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: San Diego Country Club - Hidden Gem (Front & Back Nine Posted)
« Reply #98 on: January 10, 2012, 04:11:36 PM »
The Ambassador Golf Club Course was designed by Fowler and had just formally opened a few months before. Many revisions later it is now Rancho Park.  The LA North Course must be course built by Thomas to Fowler's plans.  
« Last Edit: January 10, 2012, 04:18:26 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: San Diego Country Club - Hidden Gem (Front & Back Nine Posted)
« Reply #99 on: January 11, 2012, 10:42:38 AM »
TomM,

The mention of White Bear doesn't surprise me either, but the mention of Sunset Hill did.  I had read that Sunset Hill was created by the Foulis Brothers and I have never seen anything connecting it to Watson.   There would eventually be a Sunset Hills in southern california, but not this early, I don't think.


Most everything I've read gives credit to James and Robert Foulis. There is a connection between Foulis and Watson. They hail from St. Andrews, and they got their start in Minneapolis in the late 1890s. I'm not sure if they ended up in Minnesota independent from one another or if they had a connection in St. Andrews. I think clubmaking was their forte, both Foulis and Watson.

I believe they collaborated on one or two designs around the turn of the century. Interlachen?

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